Northern Class 158 Driving Technique

[Kurolus Rex]

Yes there are, you want the document titled "London North Eastern Sectional Appendix March 2019.pdf". You'll have to access the .pdf and work through it to find the locations you're interested in.

Just took a look. Page 786 on the PDF if anyone wants to take a look.

Hunmanby:

-50mph speed limit southbound
-60mph speed limit northbound

Filey:
-40/60mph speed limit southbound
-40mph speed limit northbound

The speed limit theory doesn't really add up. So why do they often take so long to take full power?

 

[atraindriver]

<deleted>

 

[GusB]

I think we should trust the drivers of these trains to know which notch to use and when - they are the professionals after all. If someone was so nit-picky over my (car) driving, they'd soon be politely(!) informed that "other modes of transport are available"

 

[ComUtoR]

Hunmanby:

-50mph speed limit southbound
-60mph speed limit northbound

I have no idea about North/South but from what I can read the Down Bridlington (towards Filey) Does go up to 60mph but drops to 40mph for Filey Station. There are also a number of Level Crossings. How much room is there to accelerate to 60 and then start braking for Filey and also allow for the Signal sequences. dropping into a Single line will also have an effect on what signals you tend to get.

For the Up Bridlington you have a 20mph limit as you exit the station for Hunmanby Junction. You would have to clear that before accelerating.

Filey:
-40/60mph speed limit southbound

The speed through the station is 40mph so again, you need to clear that before accelerating. 40mph is a relatively low speed. Would the Drivers of these units regularly take Notch 7 up to 40mph ? We have 'Eco Driving' at our TOC so maybe there is also that to consider.


Have you checked for 'Local Instructions' you can get specific limits on what notch you can take at certain locations. One of ours is a maximum of notch 2 or 50%

 

[Kurolus Rex]

For the Up Bridlington you have a 20mph limit as you exit the station for Hunmanby Junction. You would have to clear that before accelerating.

In the video the driver is heading Northbound towards Bridlington and Scarborough and so he would have a 40mph speed limit, yet in the video the driver doesn't appear to go beyond Notch 4 until he presumably reaches the 60mph limit. Judging by the acceleration of 158s i wouldn't think there'd be a problem going into Notch 7 to get up to the 40 but maybe i'm wrong. The same also applies to Filey.

Couldn't find anything to do with speed restrictions specifically, though page 834 does have some notes about crossings and signalling.



Would be nice for an actual driver on this line to shed some light on this, rather difficult to visualise how far apart these speed limits are just from a diagram!

 

[Kurolus Rex]

I think we should trust the drivers of these trains to know which notch to use and when - they are the professionals after all. If someone was so nit-picky over my (car) driving, they'd soon be politely(!) informed that "other modes of transport are available"

I don't doubt them. There's a reason they drive like they do, i'm curious as to what that reason is.

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't doubt them. There's a reason they drive like they do, i'm curious as to what that reason is.

Things that affect my driving style :

PDP - Professional Driving Policy
Gradient
Line speed(s) - Including the one I'm on and the next one.
Signals - Restrictive aspects, Approach control, Junction signalling, PRI (preliminary route indication), 2/3/4 aspect sequence(s) etc.
Weather
Known Area of Low Adhesion
Unit performance
Degraded working
Local instructions
Traction (Train Class)
Timetable - Late running, and sectional timings
Fatigue
Route knowledge
Stopping Pattern
Choice - Sometimes I push it and sometimes I kick back and take a relaxed approach. As long as I conform to the specific points in the PDP I can drive pretty much however I want.

 

[Johncleesefan]

In the video the driver is heading Northbound towards Bridlington and Scarborough and so he would have a 40mph speed limit, yet in the video the driver doesn't appear to go beyond Notch 4 until he presumably reaches the 60mph limit. Judging by the acceleration of 158s i wouldn't think there'd be a problem going into Notch 7 to get up to the 40 but maybe i'm wrong. The same also applies to Filey.

Couldn't find anything to do with speed restrictions specifically, though page 834 does have some notes about crossings and signalling.



Would be nice for an actual driver on this line to shed some light on this, rather difficult to visualise how far apart these speed limits are just from a diagram!

A reason for a lower notch for a long period could be due to running on restrictives and allowing the train ahead to get away so he’s on clear greens then

 

[LowLevel]

It really does vary. There's nothing more frustrating than drivers who try and drive Perkins units like Cummins ones.

 

[John B]

How does a driver who may not be an enthusiast, just someone who is professional and competent know if a 158 is Perkins or Cummins engined?

 

[Burgerstahl]

How does a driver who may not be an enthusiast, just someone who is professional and competent know if a 158 is Perkins or Cummins engined?

1. If it took 10 minutes to get it started = Perkins
2. Doesn’t want to move in notches 1 to 4 = Perkins
3. Fault book is full of reports about it reverting to idle = Perkins.

 

[Llama]

Also if it rattles a lot, spews black smoke and there is the visual appearance of the engine which can mark it out as a Perkins engined unit.

The video at Hebden Bridge in post #6 sounds to me like the driver uses notch 3 to start, then after a little bit of speed builds - into notches 4&5 in quick succession, then a bit faster straight from 5 to 7.

Power notch changes are easier to notice on Cummins units as they use solenoids to operate the fuel rack. Those with Perkins engines use an air-operated piston rather than solenoids as I understand it which seems to give a slower and more gradual response in higher power notches (5-7).

As others have said, there is no absolute policy from Northern on the use of the power controller on Sprinter type units, and certainly nothing which would differ from one route to another. The driver's handbook does specifically state not to be aggressive though. Straight from idle to notch 7 would be deemed aggressive and would get a driver pulled up by their line manager on assessment. 3-5-7 is a suggested technique on Northern for Sprinters/Pacers based on advice given by Operations Standards managers on the old Northern Rail nearly 15 years ago. Despite what Derby RTC said about taking notch 7 from a stand, if you do that all you are going to do is rev the engine 'on the governor' for a few seconds until the torque converter fills with oil enough to give propulsion, if this is done 300+ times per day on each occasion the unit starts from rest then you will have wasted quite a lot of fuel both in revving the engine unnecessarily and also in heating the transmission oil. This is also ignoring the slight extra wear & tear on the entire driveline & the unnecessary noise. This is also the case when the train is coasting and power is retaken - advice is to select a low power notch (even 1 will do) for a few seconds to fill the transmission and then increase to higher notches as needed.

Starting away on the steepest rising gradients doesn't need anything more than notch 3 on a Cummins unit to avoid the risk of rolling back, or notch 5 on a Perkins unit. Starting away on a falling gradient is usually done the same as elsewhere but Northern do mention in their driver handbook that simply releasing the brake and allowing gravity to do some work is acceptable.

 

[LowLevel]

How does a driver who may not be an enthusiast, just someone who is professional and competent know if a 158 is Perkins or Cummins engined?

I'd hope they'd at least know as part of their traction knowledge that what is effectively a different sub class handles in a totally different way.

 

[Llama]

Northern putting some way of identifying the engine type in the cabs wouldn't go amiss, but that's never been done.

 

[LowLevel]

We have 8 Perkins units off the top of my head from a fleet of about 25 or so - most of the drivers seem to identify the difference between them. Probably helps that our fleet is comparatively small all round.

 

[anamyd]

1. If it took 10 minutes to get it started = Perkins
2. Doesn’t want to move in notches 1 to 4 = Perkins
3. Fault book is full of reports about it reverting to idle = Perkins.

strange, the 24 TfW 158s are all Perkins and are all fine

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Thanks for the very detailed replies!

Also if it rattles a lot, spews black smoke and there is the visual appearance of the engine which can mark it out as a Perkins engined unit.

The video at Hebden Bridge in post #6 sounds to me like the driver uses notch 3 to start, then after a little bit of speed builds - into notches 4&5 in quick succession, then a bit faster straight from 5 to 7.

Power notch changes are easier to notice on Cummins units as they use solenoids to operate the fuel rack. Those with Perkins engines use an air-operated piston rather than solenoids as I understand it which seems to give a slower and more gradual response in higher power notches (5-7).

As others have said, there is no absolute policy from Northern on the use of the power controller on Sprinter type units, and certainly nothing which would differ from one route to another. The driver's handbook does specifically state not to be aggressive though. Straight from idle to notch 7 would be deemed aggressive and would get a driver pulled up by their line manager on assessment. 3-5-7 is a suggested technique on Northern for Sprinters/Pacers based on advice given by Operations Standards managers on the old Northern Rail nearly 15 years ago. Despite what Derby RTC said about taking notch 7 from a stand, if you do that all you are going to do is rev the engine 'on the governor' for a few seconds until the torque converter fills with oil enough to give propulsion, if this is done 300+ times per day on each occasion the unit starts from rest then you will have wasted quite a lot of fuel both in revving the engine unnecessarily and also in heating the transmission oil. This is also ignoring the slight extra wear & tear on the entire driveline & the unnecessary noise. This is also the case when the train is coasting and power is retaken - advice is to select a low power notch (even 1 will do) for a few seconds to fill the transmission and then increase to higher notches as needed.

Starting away on the steepest rising gradients doesn't need anything more than notch 3 on a Cummins unit to avoid the risk of rolling back, or notch 5 on a Perkins unit. Starting away on a falling gradient is usually done the same as elsewhere but Northern do mention in their driver handbook that simply releasing the brake and allowing gravity to do some work is acceptable.

So when retaking power whilst already in motion, would it be acceptable to go straight into Notch 7 once you've gotten into at least Notch 1? For example, if i was in Notch 3 and needed to go up to Notch 7, would it be acceptable to go straight into Notch 7 or would i need to go to Notch 5 and then 7?

How does a driver who may not be an enthusiast, just someone who is professional and competent know if a 158 is Perkins or Cummins engined?

I assume the only way a driver who isn't an enthusiast would know is by either the unit numbering or just by how quickly the train gets going at Notch 3. As mentioned before, Notch 3 on a Perkins unit is very weak compared to a Cummins unit so you need to go into Notch 4 faster than you would in a Cummins unit.

 

[John B]

As an outsider to the rail industry industry, I find these notch topics fascinating. May seem a silly question to some but what are notches 1 &2 for if a train can start in notch 3?

 

[Llama]

Thanks for the very detailed replies!

So when retaking power whilst already in motion, would it be acceptable to go straight into Notch 7 once you've gotten into at least Notch 1? For example, if i was in Notch 3 and needed to go up to Notch 7, would it be acceptable to go straight into Notch 7 or would i need to go to Notch 5 and then 7?

There isn't really a 'right way' of opening up after taking an initial low power notch to fill the transmission when already in motion, personally I would prefer to be a bit smoother, but each to their own.

I assume the only way a driver who isn't an enthusiast would know is by either the unit numbering or just by how quickly the train gets going at Notch 3. As mentioned before, Notch 3 on a Perkins unit is very weak compared to a Cummins unit so you need to go into Notch 4 faster than you would in a Cummins unit.

Power notch 4 in a Perkins unit is pretty similar to notch 3, it won't really move until you hit notch 5.

As an outsider to the rail industry industry, I find these notch topics fascinating. May seem a silly question to some but what are notches 1 &2 for if a train can start in notch 3?

Power notches 1 & 2 are used for low speed movements, attaching/detaching, and for using when notch 3 or above is too much power, eg when keeping up to but within a certain speed depending on gradient.

Edit - formatting of quotes

 

[Kurolus Rex]

There isn't really a 'right way' of opening up after taking an initial low power notch to fill the transmission when already in motion, personally I would prefer to be a bit smoother, but each to their own.


Power notch 4 in a Perkins unit is pretty similar to notch 3, it won't really move until you hit notch 5.


Power notches 1 & 2 are used for low speed movements, attaching/detaching, and for using when notch 3 or above is too much power, eg when keeping up to but within a certain speed depending on gradient.

Edit - formatting of quotes

From what I've seen most drivers go into Notch 4 and then 5 shortly after which is what i was referring to. You're right that Notch 4 shouldn't really be used to get up to speed unless you have a low speed limit etc.

Thanks for the reply once again!