Northern Class 170's

[61653 HTAFC]

Well yes but from what we have herd so far it doesn't look like they will be using them on Connect services

Will they have leather seats, I wonder? There's a lot of bull being spoken about the plans anyway...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well yes but from what we have herd so far it doesn't look like they will be using them on Connect services

It does - some of the Connect services are very explicitly not using new stock - I think the Chester to Manchester service is one but might be wrong.

 

[DanNCL]

It does - some of the Connect services are very explicitly not using new stock - I think the Chester to Manchester service is one but might be wrong.

I though the only Connect service not using new stock was Carlisle - Newcastle - Middlesbrough; is this now not the case?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I though the only Connect service not using new stock was Carlisle - Newcastle - Middlesbrough; is this now not the case?

Sorry, it might be that one - what I'm certain of is that there is one.

 

[47802]

It does - some of the Connect services are very explicitly not using new stock - I think the Chester to Manchester service is one but might be wrong.

Well things may change but from what Northern have said so far they wont, they have said Harrogate route and Leeds-Southport neither of these are Northern Connect, and possible temp use on Chester-Leeds, pre 195 and pre Connect Service. 158's have been indicated as being used on Northern Connect services in the North East, although 170's might actually turn out to be more comfortable than the alleged more luxury version of the ironing board seat that the 195's and 158's are now go to get.

 

[DanNCL]

Sorry, it might be that one - what I'm certain of is that there is one.

Carlisle - Newcastle - Middlesbrough is supposedly using 158s. I think the other routes are all meant to be using 195s and 331s, though with Windermere now not being electrified that plan might have changed

 

[tbtc]

some of the Connect services are very explicitly not using new stock - I think the Chester to Manchester service is one but might be wrong.

I though the only Connect service not using new stock was Carlisle - Newcastle - Middlesbrough; is this now not the case?

Sorry, it might be that one - what I'm certain of is that there is one.

Correct re Carlisle - Middlesbrough, but what may also be confusing things is that some (most?) of the Northern Connect services will only have "Connect" units on certain journeys.

For example, I think the Sheffield - Hull service will only see "Connect" quality DMUs on around two thirds of the services - which would leave a gap for additional 170s to fill on the remaining services (whether ex-GA or ex-LM). The plan seems to be to order a headline number of new trains (albeit many of which are just two carriages) and then spread them thinly around the network (so that lots of stations are on the "Connect" map and get brand new trains, but not enough to fill all diagrams on those lines). So it looks like a huge improvement but there aren't sufficient carriages to do everything that is being suggested.

TBH I'd rather have a three coach 170 on the Nottingham - Sheffield - Leeds - Bradford service than a two coach 195 - the extra seats are more important to me (given that a 195 isn't going to be massively different to a Turbostar).

 

[lammergeier]

TBH I'd rather have a three coach 170 on the Nottingham - Sheffield - Leeds - Bradford service than a two coach 195 - the extra seats are more important to me (given that a 195 isn't going to be massively different to a Turbostar).

Plus the 170 would be far more suited to the limited stop, higher speed Sheff-Hull or Leeds-Notts routes than the Harrogate stop-start meander. The 170s are terribly slow off the mark but cruise effortlessly once up to speed. I also expect the 195s, whilst new, won't be as nice inside for pax as the Scotrail 170s.

 

[IanXC]

Correct re Carlisle - Middlesbrough, but what may also be confusing things is that some (most?) of the Northern Connect services will only have "Connect" units on certain journeys.

For example, I think the Sheffield - Hull service will only see "Connect" quality DMUs on around two thirds of the services - which would leave a gap for additional 170s to fill on the remaining services (whether ex-GA or ex-LM). The plan seems to be to order a headline number of new trains (albeit many of which are just two carriages) and then spread them thinly around the network (so that lots of stations are on the "Connect" map and get brand new trains, but not enough to fill all diagrams on those lines). So it looks like a huge improvement but there aren't sufficient carriages to do everything that is being suggested.

TBH I'd rather have a three coach 170 on the Nottingham - Sheffield - Leeds - Bradford service than a two coach 195 - the extra seats are more important to me (given that a 195 isn't going to be massively different to a Turbostar).

I suppose it depends how far 16 170s will stretch, but I don't see these doing anything other than Southport and Harrogate. Remember that Southport to Leeds will probably take something in the region of 2.5 hours, allowing for some on the Harrogate line and some on maintenance that doesn't leave many I wouldn't have thought!

There are, however, a lot of Sprinters to find homes for, haven't we previously seen suggestion 158s will do Connect work amongst the 195s?

I suppose we don't know what the further '170 equivalents' are for - operating some of the further additional services planned, or for strengthening? And we don't know how the Windermere changes impact all this.

 

[Halish Railway]

Aren't some 170's going to come of lease from the West Midlands Franchise?

 

[IanXC]

Aren't some 170's going to come of lease from the West Midlands Franchise?

The Northern Franchise agreement has this to say about non specified additional stock; 18x 2 car units, of the equivalent performance and quality of Class 170 units.

There are the following coming off lease:

Greater Anglia 8x 3 car 170s
Greater Anglia 4x 2 car 170s
London Midland 17x 2 car 170s
London Midland 6x 3 car 170s

That said I would suspect the next Cross Country franchise holder is a good bet to take on at least some of these.

 

[D365]

Are the 22x 3 car 185s still on the cards?

 

[47802]

Are the 22x 3 car 185s still on the cards?

I think it remains to be seen whether of not the 185 become available or not, but may make more sense for Northern to take more 170's or possibly more new build 195's than the heavyweight 185's and introduce yet another train type to Northern's fleet

 

[Mordac]

The Northern Franchise agreement has this to say about non specified additional stock; 18x 2 car units, of the equivalent performance and quality of Class 170 units.

There are the following coming off lease:

Greater Anglia 8x 3 car 170s
Greater Anglia 4x 2 car 170s
London Midland 17x 2 car 170s
London Midland 6x 3 car 170s

That said I would suspect the next Cross Country franchise holder is a good bet to take on at least some of these.

I'd also expect Chiltern to nab a couple (for conversion into 168s), as they'll need to replace the slam door set by 2020.

 

[pemma]

I'd also expect Chiltern to nab a couple (for conversion into 168s), as they'll need to replace the slam door set by 2020.

Only 11 of the sets will be off-lease by December 2019 and that presumes Anglia get their new bi-mode FLIRTs on schedule.

 

[jonesy3001]

Must admit I did find the ones TPE had very cozy, shame they didn't have them for long.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Must admit I did find the ones TPE had very cozy, shame they didn't have them for long.

I used to have a really nice sleep to work on them on a 6 car from Dewsbury to Manchester back in the day.

 

[222001]

That said I would suspect the next Cross Country franchise holder is a good bet to take on at least some of these.

Maybe the next EM franchise, as the DFT are pushing for the Birmingham - Stansted/Leicester and Birmingham - Nottingham services become part of the EM franchise.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Must admit I did find the ones TPE had very cozy, shame they didn't have them for long.

They're awful! I get them sometimes on the Oxford to Bicester Line, the seats are hard and stiff, unlike the original 168s and ScotRail 170s. Fortunately the Northern 170s shouldn't have those seats.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It does - some of the Connect services are very explicitly not using new stock - I think the Chester to Manchester service is one but might be wrong.

Which way?

 

[47802]

I'd also expect Chiltern to nab a couple (for conversion into 168s), as they'll need to replace the slam door set by 2020.

Except of course the boot will somewhat on the other foot when it comes to what happened with the Ex TPE 170's in that Chiltern Franchise will be coming to an end while the Northern Franchise will still have a considerable period to run.

 

[Mollman]

Has it been confirmed that the 170s are keeping their current seats? Otherwise some of you will be very disappointed when a refurbished set appears with ironing board seats. Slightly off topic but I do remember reading that the 2-car 195s will generally work in pairs (stop sniggering at the back).

 

[Halish Railway]

There's no real need for new seats. I think that Northern would just fit a new moquette.

 

[lammergeier]

Has it been confirmed that the 170s are keeping their current seats? Otherwise some of you will be very disappointed when a refurbished set appears with ironing board seats. Slightly off topic but I do remember reading that the 2-car 195s will generally work in pairs (stop sniggering at the back).

I would be surprised frankly if money was spent taking out perfectly good seats for the sake of replacing them with ironing boards or any other seat for that matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW those seats are the Chapman frame - a good upgrade in Chapman seated units would be to change the cushions for that design instead of the originals.

(Some 170s, principally the ex-MML ones, have a different, more substantial frame but the same cushion)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

FWIW those seats are the Chapman frame - a good upgrade in Chapman seated units would be to change the cushions for that design instead of the originals.

So like on the 150/2s? Is there room??

 

[Bletchleyite]

So like on the 150/2s? Is there room??

I'm thinking more 150/1 and 156. 150/2s if they can't change the layout need a thinner seat (i.e. ironing boards).

 

[Roose]

... what may also be confusing things is that some (most?) of the Northern Connect services will only have "Connect" units on certain journeys.

Could there be confusion between 'lines' and 'services' here when you write about 'journeys'? For example, the Furness line will have Connect services from Barrow to Manchester using 395s and omitting certain stops while the Barrow to Lancaster/Preston services will be operated by existing units as stopping services.

 

[DanNCL]

the Furness line will have Connect services from Barrow to Manchester using 395s

I think you mean 195, not 395. As nice as it would be to have 395s in the north, I can't see it happening anytime soon

 

[47802]

Could there be confusion between 'lines' and 'services' here when you write about 'journeys'? For example, the Furness line will have Connect services from Barrow to Manchester using 395s and omitting certain stops while the Barrow to Lancaster/Preston services will be operated by existing units as stopping services.

I think the confusing issue is that what will become connect routes may get other stock in the interim period such as 170's and 769's. I guess its also possible some connect trains will work some non connect services especially the 331 EMU's