Halish Railway
Established Member
It's quite likely as Northern are required to get another 18 or so. It'd have thought it more likely to get GA's 170's.
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Northern Class 170's
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jonesy3001
Established Member
They`ll probably stick to getting the 3 car 170s for now to increase capacity.
Kieran1990
Member
Are there three out again today? Planning a trip up to Harrogate later from Leeds’s ✌️
The unspecified 170s are only required to be 2 cars. They have got the 16 3 car units from Scotrail confirmed, they just need to source 18 2 car units with "Performance and quality equivalent to a two car Class 170 refurbished to a standard consistent with that required".
I would suggest that the 17 2 car 170s from WMT would be a good start - perhaps they can convince the DfT that they should have those as well as the 6 3 car units, but failing that you could just take the centre car out of one of those 6 to get the 18 2 car units needed, perhaps donating the spare centre car to XC.
170478 is on the 09:59 Leeds-Knaresborough, not seen the others but I expect they will be on the same diagrams as yesterday.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Was it in Northern or ScotRail livery, as I'm not sure if the ScotRail ones came down with these fitted?
170476 was sitting in P5 at Leeds for the 07:00 and as I walked to work a second 170 in ScotRail livery was making an ECS move into Leeds, so you are probably right.
Kite159
Veteran Member
How are the 170s, with their slow acceleration, holding up in relation to matching the timings of the Sprinters?
Sadly those seats probably won't stay clean for long
Sadly those seats probably won't stay clean for long
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If they're only going to be used on local stopping services, is it viable to re-gear a dedicated set of 170s to 75mph?
How are the 170s, with their slow acceleration, holding up in relation to matching the timings of the Sprinters?
Sadly those seats probably won't stay clean for long
170s actually have superior acceleration to Pacers and 150s even when they can't get above 75mph. It's 158s and 185s they have inferior acceleration to.
The 09:59 Leeds to Knaresborough has been mentioned as one service 170s are working, I notice from RTT that service is working just as well as it was last week. (Not sure if it was a 144, 150, 153, 155 or a combination of them last week.)
cactustwirly
Established Member
No, they'll also be working on connect services (to Southport?)
So a dedicated set of 170s is more trouble than it's worth, and gives Northern less flexibility.
I'm assuming new cloth seat covers are cheaper than patterned moquette. If so, it's a false economy and passengers will soon be seeing visible stains on seats.... Sadly those seats probably won't stay clean for long
Southport-Leeds won't be a Connect route.
They did manage to afford stickers to hide the ScotRail logo on that signage though
In all seriousness, it does look like a good refresh internally, albeit, I still don't understand the flat cloth upholstery - surely the more traditional moquette would be more robust?
Kieran1990
Member
decdied to head for Harrogate today and catch a trip up from Burley Pk in Class 170. My shock when a 2 car class 158 rolled in on the 14:04
Are there any out today?
Are there any out today?
Kieran1990
Member
Came back on the 16:15 Harrogate- Leeds this afternoon- what an absolute step change from the class 142/3’s & class 150’s/ 155’s. Un-refurbished Class 170 but was smooth throughout and a/c. Well done northern on acquiring them, yes we lost 3/4 mins between Harrogate and Burley Pk but just a great improvement on-bored for us Harrogate line folk
scotraildriver
Established Member
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Was there a need to refurbish at all? (Apart from fitting sockets and repainting) They were all refurbished fairly recently at Scotrail and I doubt many people would realise the crosses on the seats are meant to be saltires. They looked good as they were!They did manage to afford stickers to hide the ScotRail logo on that signage though
In all seriousness, it does look like a good refresh internally, albeit, I still don't understand the flat cloth upholstery - surely the more traditional moquette would be more robust?
modernrail
Member
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On the flat cloth issue a few questions if I may.
1. Is this particular version definitely worse than moquette? Is it possible there have been advances in flat cloth that make it more durable?
2. Are there any standards in the franchise agreements for the refurbishment - for instance that the new seat coverings should last for [x] years?
3. Are there examples elsewhere where flat cloth has been used and not worn well?
4. I recall that lots of moquette is made in the UK? Is this flat cloth made in the UK?
It strikes me that Northern need to be called on this if the product is clearly inferior. This is the sort of thing that TfN are unlikely to spot, especially as a new body and then it will come out in a few years as the entire fleet looks shabby again. We can't afford to let this major refurbishment programme result in a poor product as it will just need to be sorted again affecting the financial health of either this franchise or the next. Some well informed emails to them might be in order.
Also, it is me or does the new carpet on the 170 clash with the seats. Northern new and old seem to love asking somebody who is colour blind to match carpets and seat coverings.
1. Is this particular version definitely worse than moquette? Is it possible there have been advances in flat cloth that make it more durable?
2. Are there any standards in the franchise agreements for the refurbishment - for instance that the new seat coverings should last for [x] years?
3. Are there examples elsewhere where flat cloth has been used and not worn well?
4. I recall that lots of moquette is made in the UK? Is this flat cloth made in the UK?
It strikes me that Northern need to be called on this if the product is clearly inferior. This is the sort of thing that TfN are unlikely to spot, especially as a new body and then it will come out in a few years as the entire fleet looks shabby again. We can't afford to let this major refurbishment programme result in a poor product as it will just need to be sorted again affecting the financial health of either this franchise or the next. Some well informed emails to them might be in order.
Also, it is me or does the new carpet on the 170 clash with the seats. Northern new and old seem to love asking somebody who is colour blind to match carpets and seat coverings.
fgwrich
Established Member
I have no idea I’m afraid as to where the cloth is made, I know some of the more well known Moquettes are made over in Ireland though. Personally I’m not a fan of this flat cloth material, nor the “AstroTurf” material both Southern and GWR now seems to be using either. My main gripe with it is how easily maintainable it is compared to Moquette. I know that the colours (operator dependant) can show marks and stains up worse than others, but they don’t seem to wear as well as Moquette. Take the FGW to GWR HSTs for example - the Dynamic Lines Moquette has worn rather well over the years and still looks rather good, especially compared to this poor effort after less than six months in traffic (LA15 - the GWR refurbished set).
Flat cloth is also being used in the IETs, and that doesn’t seem to be wearing well either.
As for the Northern refurbishment, I do think it looks good. However, and my only However is this idea of painting the seat backs Black. Who wants to look at a large slab of black plastic during their journey?!
Attachments
3. The first iteration of the GWR seat covers used a flat cloth IIRC. It didn't take long for stains to show.
4. In the UK, Camira seem to be a major supplier of seat fabrics (including moquette), with a factory in West Yorkshire.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The black seats will also get scratched with graffiti in short order.
Whattraintoday
Member
Saw 478 in LDS this morning, suitably de-Scotified. Looked in decent condition - to the extent that one or two commuters that got off our 155 were intrigued! Unless you recognised that they're saltires on the moquette you wouldn't know.
Tellingly for Northern's low-cost approach to stuff like this, the newly-applied Northern branded sticker/sign thingies were heavily damaged and curling and had clearly been cannibalised from elsewhere in the fleet.
Tellingly for Northern's low-cost approach to stuff like this, the newly-applied Northern branded sticker/sign thingies were heavily damaged and curling and had clearly been cannibalised from elsewhere in the fleet.
OK thanks.
Northern awarded the contract for the production of new seat covers to West Yorkshire based Camira.
transmanche
Established Member
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There's a nice little video made by the London Transport Museum, showing how Camira makes their moquette. Whilst the yarn is dyed in Huddersfield, it's then shipped to Lithuania to be woven before being shipped back for finishing.
1179_Clee2
Member
Rail magazine 857
More Class 170/4 will leave Scotrail and transfer to Northern at the end of July with more due to follow in August.
It does not say how many trains or why some units transfer in August and not July as planned.
More Class 170/4 will leave Scotrail and transfer to Northern at the end of July with more due to follow in August.
It does not say how many trains or why some units transfer in August and not July as planned.
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