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Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by Greybeard33, 23 Mar 2016.
Are you willing to disclose your source of information?
Thanks for that.
I'd been aware that 'charlwoodhouse' retained information for far longer than 'realtimetrains' (over twelve months, compared to seven days) but hadn't known that it went much further into the future, too.
The website carries a warning that information more than 12 weeks in the future should be considered provisional. Not all the Dec 2017 timetables have been loaded yet. For instance, all the Hazel Grove terminators (except the peak extras) are still missing, possibly because of uncertainty about Bolton electrification availability.
Quite, it's easy to forget that the thirteenth week of Realtime Trains is at serious risk of being altered, and it often is.
What is currently on 'charlwoodhouse' is a very useful guide, but there's obviously quite a bit of refinement to come yet. My local train service, the Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria stopper, is currently showing as twenty-one daily journeys eastbound (Mon/Sat), but only thirteen westbound. Assuming that there aren't going to be any serious changes (and it doesn't look as there are) then it should be twenty-two journeys each way.
I've been checking the above on 'charlwoodhouse' and for the most part agree with your deductions, but I do have a niggling doubt that set 6 will go on the front of set 4 in time for the 0812 departure from Preston. I would have expected it to be scheduled into platform 6 c.0800, but as it is it's scheduled to go into 'RES' at 0803. (You probably know what RES implies, I'm afraid that I don't myself). On later couplings the empty set is scheduled to go on the back (I'm sure you're correct that it will do at 1207, although I can't see a related ECS movement).
If set 6 goes on the back of set 4, that will make the rotation TPE > Diagram 8 > Diagram 2 > Diagram 6 > Diagram 4 > TPE, with diagrams 4 and 6 swapping their duties from 0929.
Where you have given a list of services which you say are being withdrawn completely, I don't think they'll actually be withdrawn but rather replaced by a non-185 working. The replacement for the 1901 Airport to Preston is already being shown, it is 1858 Airport to Glasgow Central.
In respect of the other services listed there are tell-tale ECS workings which effectively show they are being replaced. There is a 5U02, arrive RES 0404, and a 5U50, arrive platform 5 0459. These are both scheduled for 319s.
There is a 5U74, 2238 Preston to Preston Carriage Sidings, scheduled for a 319, and a 5U74, 2245 Preston to Croft Street, scheduled for a Pacer. I take that to mean that if the replacement for the 2129 ex-Airport (which might be, 2129 ex-Airport) is a 319 it will be scheduled to arrive Preston seven minutes earlier than if it were a diesel.
There's no appropriate ECS working showing for a 1N52, but it would arrive Preston in comfortable time to work the 0729 (currently 0730) Preston to Liverpool, which is presently supplied from the carriage sidings, and the ECS working for that has suspiciously disappeared.
It looks as though 1U02 is going to be dropped back by a few minutes, at least.
A couple of very minor corrections - Diagram 6, 0929 MIA - PRE should presumably be 1C52, and the three-letter code for Sheffield is SHF.
RES refers to the non-passenger platforms at Preston, I think they uses to be the old parcels depot?
Also, the 1858 from Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central started in May.
Thanks for the info, Starmill.
RES then presumably standing for Rail Express Systems, which is what the Parcels Sector was renamed in 1991.
Been running for two months, and I've just found out - must pay attention. No doubt will be diverted via Bolton in December, so the 1901 MIA-PRE won't then be necessary.
The additional southbound working presumably being 1847 GLC-MIA.
Two 185s are at the moment continuing to stable at Blackpool North CMD on Friday and Saturday nights, although they don't start passenger work until 0638/0916 on Saturdays and 1044/1204 on Sundays.
On Saturdays the four Blackpool/Barrow based 185s remain with Northern for most of the day, although one unit temporarily goes back to TPE between 1137 and 1357. A unit goes off to TPE at 0747, but it's immediately replaced. Two further changeovers take place mid to late evening, but there is overlap, and for a time there are five units in use by Northern.
Thanks for the corrections - OP amended.
Regarding the 0812 from Preston, I am still of the opinion that the portion from Barrow (which is the more likely to be late) will couple on to the rear of the portion from the sidings. This arrangement will minimise the dwell at Preston when running late. The 5U56 ECS working is detailed as Croft Street d 0750, RES a 0752, d 0755, Shunt Line a 0757 d 0801, RES (again!) a 0803. I believe the final shunt will really be into Platform 6, to await the Barrow portion, not back into RES.
Regarding the early morning/late evening services 1U02, 1U50 and 1N74, you may well be right that they will be replaced by Sprinters or 319s, depending on the eventual entry into service date of Chorley line electrification. If so, I guess they might be loaded into the WTT at the same time as the currently-missing Preston to Hazel Grove services, maybe with a change from DMU to EMU part way through the timetable period. But, from previous experience, it is unwise to give too much credence to booked ECS workings in advance of a timetable change, so I have left them as withdrawn for now.
The issue of the 1900-ish TPE Glasgow service possibly taking over the path of the Northern 1N70 Blackpool working was debated at length in late March in the May 17 timetable changes thread, between Posts #64 and #127. At that time I was of the opinion that the Northern service would be withdrawn at the May 2017 timetable change to make room for the new TPE service, but in the event the timings were adjusted slightly to squeeze them both into the same path to Ordsall Lane.
Before the May 2016 timetable change, when Northern's 185 allocation was reduced, it was reported that Northern was looking at using a 156+153 formation on the 1900 Airport to Barrow service. This proved problematic, and instead the service was cut back to Preston in order that an extra 185 could be borrowed and return to the Airport (and TPE) as a portion of 1U79, departing Preston 2010.
It will be interesting to see what eventually happens to these services in Dec 2017 - I doubt that 6-car capacity is really needed on 1U79.
The 1900 used to go to Barrow-in-Furness, not Blackpool North. There is still a 1929 and a 2029 to Blackpool North! I have a feeling that this service was cut back to Preston last year, with the 2134 Barrow-in-Furness to Millom extended to start back from Preston.
Off-topic it will be very interesting to see if Millom retains that direct evening service from Preston next year, and if that service will end up running through from Manchester Airport via Wigan again.
Yes, I'm sure you're right, I hadn't noticed that 5U56 was shown as going into RES twice.
Up until around 2004 there was a direct FNW/TPE to Millom from Manchester Airport, which ran in the evening. Think there was also an early morning southbound working too.
On Thursdays, when 1S85 (1858 MIA-GLC) is 185-operated, both it and 1N70 (1901 MIA-PRE) are formed from the same arrival (1P53, 1653 YRK-MIA, due MIA 1839).
Are the diagrams quoted on the first post of this thread still correct?
Not quite, most of the changes are a consequence of overnight engineering work between Preston and Blackpool. These are the changes of which I am aware.
Diagram 1: 1U02 is now 0402 PRE-MIA 0502
Diagram 2: 1N39 now terminates at PRE (2342) on Mondays to Thursdays (unaltered on Fridays)
Diagram 3: 1U50 is now 0512 PRE-MIA 0617
Diagram 5: As stated in #1, this diagram has been covered by NT units since July 2016
Diagram 6: 1N74 now terminates at PRE (2238) on Mondays to Thursdays (unaltered on Fridays)
Diagrams 4, 7, and 8 are essentially unaltered. There have been changes to the TP duties the NT duties interwork with, and I have ignored timing changes of only a minute or two.
Cheers mate, that's really helpful!
The next obvious change comes over the weekend of 10-13 November, when the Preston to Blackpool line temporarily closes for continuation of electrification work. According to RTT, services on Friday 10 Nov are scheduled to continue to their normal finishing time (with 15 DMU sets due to stable overnight at Blackpool CMD), but there's no indication of how those 15 sets then move to their new stabling points, so I wouldn't be surprised if services wind down from early evening, with bus substitution of later Preston to Blackpool journeys.
No services are scheduled to be operated on the line after 10 Nov, so the revised Mon/Fri schedule will be in operation from Mon 13 Nov, of course. As Greybeard has said, the 185s which currently operate Manchester Airport to Blackpool will terminate at Preston then loiter for an hour and a half or so until it's their normal return time. The truncated service, taking not much over an hour each way, could be more than comfortably covered by three DMU sets, but because the 185-operated journeys will be coming round every four hours (as they do now) the double 156s employed on the remaining journeys will also need to work to a four-hour cycle, with each set effectively dropping back by an hour after every trip. In reality it seems that they will instead be doing three trips on the bounce, then dropping back by three hours, which is more sensible, I suppose. All the same, it does mean that, throughout the day, there will be either a 185 or a double 156 stabled somewhere in the Preston area, which seems a waste of a good DMU, especially bearing in mind that the savings in units which the Preston-Blackpool closure will bring will probably be insufficient to eliminate completely the current shortage.
Sorry, should have said, 1S85 is also 185-operated on a Friday, but on that day the unit operates on the service all day (commencing with the 0709 ex-Glasgow Central), having worked north as 1S85 the previous evening.
All credit to Northern, a full service seems to have operated between Preston and Blackpool on the evening of Friday 10 Nov, the DMUs which would have stabled at Blackpool CMD then being taken to their new stabling points, some individually, some combined with others. Most seem to have gone to Preston Croft Street Sidings (which must have finished up pretty full), but at least one set went to each of Preston Carriage Sidings, Blackburn King Street, and Leyland British Leyland.
I noticed today on Journey Check Northern seem to have an entire Windermere diagram which is formed of 2 carriages instead of 3 which would suggest a Sprinter instead of a 185. However, I've noticed after 18:03 Windermere to Preston due 19:26, the 20:06 Preston to Millom due 22:04 and 22:09 Millom to Barrow-In-Furness due 22:42 are also shown as 2 carriages instead of 3. Does that mean a 185 normally goes to Millom and back in the evening?
It’s booked a 156+153, so no 153 available.
I don't believe 185s have ever worked to Millom and they certainly weren't doing so before 11th Nov. 175s, on the other hand...
The 17:29 off Manchester Airport now works solely to Barrow as a single 185, as it used to prior to TPE taking over Scottish services.
Barrow (Northern not ex-TPE traincrew) don’t sign 185’s and Barrow (ex-TPE) don’t sign Millom so guaranteed not to happen!
Must be a 156+153 or similar diagram then.
It's not supposed to as it is booked to detach a portion at Preston at 18:33 which then forms part of the 20:10 to Manchester Airport.
Does anybody know if the Furness line still have 185s on the new time table?
Yes they do, but, as far as I can tell, on Mondays to Saturdays only.
The 185s seem to be diagrammed for 0611*, 1153, 1448* Barrow - Manchester Airport
0841*, 1141, 1742* Manchester Airport - Barrow
The above times are Mondays to Fridays, but they may apply to Saturdays as well.
* = These journeys, at least, should be double units between Preston and Manchester Airport. Not sure about the others.
185s should also do a few Manchester Airport to Preston shorts, but there are no scheduled 185 journeys to/from Blackpool.
Only one unit is diagrammed to stable with Northern overnight (at Barrow). The other unit returns to TPE. The Barrow-based unit presumably stands idle on a Sunday.
From the Working Timetable, it appears that the planned diagrams from May 2018 are as follows (platform numbers not necessarily reliable):
(1B59 0325 SHeFfield to Manchester International Airport P3B, 0510)
Handover TPE > Northern
1N51* 0542 MIA, P3B - PREston P3, 0652
5U54* 0654 PRE P3, 0652 - PRE P6, 0719, ECS
1Y54 0728 PRE P6 - MIA P4A, 0833, front portion
1C51 0841 MIA P2A - PRE P1, 0949, rear portion
5U57* 1000 PRE P1 - PRE P6, 1021, ECS
1Y57* 1024 PRE P6 - MIA P2A, 1133
1C52 1141 MIA P2A - Barrow-In-Furness P1, 1414
1Y63 1448 BIF P2 - MIA P2A, 1733, rear portion from PRE
1C54 1742 MIA P2A - BIF P1, 2014 front portion to PRE
5N63* 2020 BIF P1 - Barrow Carriage Sidings [XBF] 2023, ECS
(This unit then works Diagram B the following day)
5U91* 0600 XBF - BIF P2, 0603
1Y54 0611 BIF P2 - MIA P4A, 0833, rear portion from PRE
1C51 0841 MIA P2A - BIF P1, 1114, front portion to PRE
1Y60 1153 BIF P1 - MIA P2B, 1433
1N60* 1440 MIA P2B - PRE P1, 1550
5U63* 1552 PRE P1 - PRE P6, 1601, ECS
1Y63 1624 PRE P6 - MIA P2A, 1733, front portion
1C54 1742 MIA P2A - PRE P1, 1850, rear portion
5U66* 1901 PRE P1 - PRE P2, 1912, ECS
1Y66* 1923 PRE P2 - MIA P2A, 2031
1N66* 2039 MIA P2A - PRE P1, 2152
5U69* 2154 PRE P1 - PRE P4, 2216, ECS
1Y69* 2222 PRE P4 - MIA P1A, 2333
Handback Northern > TPE
(5W77 0101 MIA P1A - Ardwick Traction Maintenance Depot [XRK], 0123, ECS, rear portion)
* Service pathed for 75mph Sprinter
On the first three weekdays of the timetable, 21 - 23 May, Northern did not receive the Diagram A unit from TPE, so was left with a single 185. There were cancellations and short workings, with a 158 or Sprinter substituted on some of the other services - see discussion in Northern Timetable thread. On the first two days the same 185 seems to have ended up back stabled in Barrow overnight - it remains to be seen what will happen today (23rd).
Please point out errors in the above.