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Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Haydn1971, 2 Apr 2016.
That applies to the Class 230s, not the Class 195s...
There you go fellow drivers. Kevin here has rumbled us all. We have to all disband now and go to work for nothing to atone for our grievous sins of not making sure standards are adhered to and just pocketing those lovely brown envelopes. Good work Kevin .
Last I heard the issue was that Northern wanted to do the training course in seven straight days (i.e. work straight through rest days and Sundays) which was proving somewhat hard to persuade ASLEF to agree to. And, if true, I can see why! I certainly wouldn't want to work seven days on the trot and even less so without some serious financial incentive.
As for your comment about the controls I'll assume that that was a very poor attempt at humour. As @Bungle965 pointed out the 170s have the same sort of control set up and went into service without bother.
IF that is true, then absolutely not surprised in the slightest. Trying to relate to the training I did onto the 390 and it certainly wasn't that quick. Was it also based on staying over somewhere in lodging, or commute? That also has a bearing on courses too.
9 days straight.
The issue has come over northern going back on what was previously agreed. That the rest days worked could be banked instead of paid.
Now they have said no, all days are paid. Which a) isn't what was agreed, and b) is unfair to those who don't want to work rest days for money and would actually like the days back as rest days.
This is what the crux of the matter is. Not about cash as previously and libellously claimed.
9 days straight?
I would reject that out of hand; for me rest day work is for emergency matters only. Good on the Unions this time.
I believe 195s 331s have proportional controls rather than previous units which have a limited number of distinct steps so will need practice to stop in the right place. Presumably why the extended trading period.
East side units 170s and 333s have combined power/ brake handles but the same number of steps as previous. Not sure about west side emu's.
You cannot libel a group (unless that group is considered to exist as a legal personality), and trade unions are specifically excluded from claiming for defamation/libel. If someone named you personally in what they said, that could be libel; saying something negative about all train drivers, or all ASLEF members, cannot.
Agreed. If that's what Northern are proposing they want their heads looking at. I'd also question whether it's sensible for someone to be driving a train after 9 days without a break. I know if I worked 9 days straight I'd be exhausted.
Those drivers would also have normal shifts to work on the days before and/or after the training course runs. Drivers can only work 13 consecutive shifts as part of the recommendations made by Anthony Hidden QC. If I remember rightly for drivers on the east side depots of Northern that number is reduced reduced to 12 consecutive shifts due to differences in working conditions and shift patterns.
This would obviously affect the train plan because those drivers would need their booked work covering not only during the training course, but also on any days they need to be 'played off' due to the Hidden recommendations. When you consider that virtually every driver in the company (~1250) needs the training on Civity units, that extra cover needed is not insignificant.
It's 7 days straight for those only signing 195s or 331s with 9 days for those signing both.
I thought there are laws about how many consecutive days can be worked without a rest. Perhaps Northern are not counting the days in the classroom.
A proper company would have the classroom training of drivers and fitters as well as spares and depot facilities in place before the trains where delivered.
Are the Newton Heath facilities finished yet.
The classroom days still count as far as the regulations go, all working days regardless of duties being safety critical or not are taken into account.
The four-road shed on Newton Heath is visible from the running lines past the depot towards Rochdale, it still looks like a muddy hole in the ground much the same as it did six months ago. Space for stabling of units is likely to be a big headache for Northern especially later this year.
Send some Pacers to Cardiff Canton: that'll make space.
Another meeting with ASLEF EC tomorrow. Hopefully better news,if so course for DI's starts Wednesday
I KNOW!!!!!!!!! But some people further up were questioning my earlier statement that ASLEF were not rejecting every 'new' train.
Do we know if anything was agreed and if the DI's can start?
Nothing agreed yet, Aslef should issue a circular to relevant people in due course once the revised 195/331 training has been reconsidered by Aslef EC.
presumably northern were offering the additional hours at enhanced rate/time in lieu?
I know at least one guy (DI) at Vic who has been out learning the WCML up to Carnfiorth but unsure if it was in a 195 or not so presuming that even though the talks are on going about the actual timing of the training, the driver instructor training (in a fashion) is going on anyway, thankfully .
Driver instructors and managers have been testing the units under supervision from CAF ensuring the units get the required fault free mileage, in order to do this have signed the WCML. This shouldn't be confused with actually being fully trained and signing the units, training for which will only start when signed off by ASLEF.
The sticking point was that Northern wanted to only offer overtime going back on previous agreement, not time off in lieu, and not everyone wants overtime.
The overtime option might not last much longer than the first few courses the way things are going.
The reason for the attempt to bin time off in lieu in the first place was because the penny had dropped that many drivers doing the course would accrue up to four banked days which would mean crippling shortages of staff further down the line.
What are you referring to here please?
I dread to think how long it's going to take to train everyone up who needs to. Don't forget Northern drivers in a depot link work many routes so its not just training a handful to run a particular route.
Anyone guess as to how many drivers need training on the first routes.
They should already have the required route knowledge. All they need is traction training.
Rest-day working isn't a given, the RDW agreement was recently extended to late April but it is a possibility that this might not be extended further. Having no RDW agreement should mean that the training would still be possible but the extra training days worked would be 'banked' to be taken at a later date in line with the relevant agreement.
That's right. The DIs need a significant amount of route learning for carrying out the practical handling up and down the WCML while they are training drivers. This route learning could have been done before now, although Aslef failing to agree the training has rendered that irrelevant. For drivers, the majority would already be competent on the routes they are to drive the new traction on. Any drivers who weren't competent on a route (say a new Piccadilly driver who doesn't yet sign Preston via Chorley and via Wigan NW) would do the traction training first before they learnt the routes required.
Yes but 7 to 9 days of traction trading per driver is going to take quite some time. Wasn't it 300 drivers just to run the Blackpool service.
I would expect that they’ll be trained in groups and not all 300 would be needed in order to run the service initially. After all not all units will be dropped into service at the same time. It’ll just need a bit of extra effort in rostering until all are competent.
Was it mentioned that dynamic training could be undertaken in passenger service?