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Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Haydn1971, 2 Apr 2016.
Ah I see, with you now. Yes this caused a few issues last time didn't it (!)
Middle car of a 195 (or 331 I guess?) on it’s way up the M5 this afternoon, presumably on way from Bristol Portbury / Avonmouth.
195 111 made an appearance at LIV this afternoon.
Is that the right real-time train link? I passed a 319 at that time at LSP which went on Allerton..
I don't know the unit numbers, but a Class 331 passed through Wigan North Western today on test around 13:20. It was followed about 10 minutes later by a 195. Both were heading southbound.
Yep. If you want to spot 331s and 195s Wigan NW seems like a good place.
Is the intention not to introduce two or three units at first and the drip feed them in later? This would be enough to replace the daily hire in of 185s from TPE which has to be a good thing for both Northern and TPE. It also occurs to me that the drivers that sign 185s (who I believe are all ex-TPE as I don't think Northern have needed to train their 'own' drivers on 185s) would therefore be familiar with modern traction. I.e. combined power/brake controllers, computerisation, etc and that then leads me to wonder if they might not need the same length of course as someone who has only ever driven Sprinters or Pacers...
There is little choice but to introduce a few units at first on a handful of diagrams at most. There is little chance of that happening in March as things stand.
The course is likely to be the same whether or not the driver is familiar with other traction. The Civity trains are a different family of units to Siemens stock.
Of course. My point, or question really, was that it's a very different beast, surely, going from driving something that was designed when the height of modernity was a Commodore 64 compared to something that was designed when phones have more power and capability than the computers that took NASA to the moon!
You're referring to whether someone needs a conversion course, or a full training course. That's obvs for Northern and ASLEF to agree on. Eccles 1983 or llama could better tell you what Northern will decide is their core traction in time to come.
There is no conversion course I am led to believe as it's a first in series type train. It's not just the actual handling of the brakes that is different but set up and components.
I'm not entirely sure but the way the power/brake handle is used is not like the 180 series that northern used to use.
That's if they manage to agree a training package.....with this lot I am not overly confident.
Making some assumptions here @Eccles1983, a 180 looks very similar to a 221 PBC with an unnotched controller (going from furthermost away from hand) Emergency , high to low, off, slight left to then take power again unnotched .Hill start on side. Does that sound about right for a 180?
Had a look at a 170 cab and the PBC in that looks nothing like a 221 PBC surprisingly. I thought Bombardier products would have some commonality, but I should know railway logic is unlike actual logic .
Given 175s have unnotched brakes but notched power (4 steps) and they were as built compatible with 180s I would assume 180s also have 4 notches for power?
170s have 7 power notches and 3 brake notches, the same as the BR Class 14x/15x with which they are compatible
The 170 design predates Bombardier's ownership or Derby. The Voyager family trains were actually made in Belgium.
I knew 170s could work in multi with 2nd gen units, (imagine forgetting about a 142 on the back and doing a ton!!!) but again the stuff in those units looks different again IIRC. Anyway, as this is about 195s I shouldn't take it off topic too much. Anyone able to say what they have for a PBC?
Ps Apologies for saying a 180 PBC looks like a 221. It was actually the 175 PBC I was referring to but I believe they're pretty much the same seeing as they were meant to be together on North Western Trains when first designed and intended. I've been in a 175 cab before and although some stuff is common to a 390, the PBC looks like that on a 221. A 390 PBC looks nothing like either a 221 or .a 175!
Yes, apologies for my post which was pretty obvious! The issue isn't necessarily the handling of the units, which will be slightly different for a diesel unit in a couple of ways but nothing mind-blowing. The main bulk of the training will be all the quirks of the units. What every circuit breaker protects (and effects if tripped), fault indications, isolation of safety critical and non-safety critical systems, location and identification of every component inside and out, full training on every aspect of the TMS, how the compressed air system, hydraulic and electrical systems work, and many more things. Preparation and disposal procedures will be different, as will the coupling procedure and potential complications.
There might be systems new to drivers such as on-board hot axle-box detectors, and door testing and operating procedures will differ (drivers test train doors on a full train preparation and are expected to close train doors in certain unplanned situations). In short there is always a lot to these training courses.
someone on here said a London Midland driver actually didn't see there was a 153 on the back of his 170 and so skipped along happily at 100mph and wrecked the 153's engine...
I'm not sure that would "wreck the engine" on a 153, the Voith transmission would effectively freewheel to an extent.
Apparently there were issues with 142s being coupled to 158s in the 1990s when the 142s had SCG mechanical transmissions, if the 142 was dragged at 90mph (or more) the mechanical transmission could cause the engine to over-rev which resulted in the odd 'leg out of bed'.
apparently it actually blew up! we're probably going too off-topic
All that training to be told that if you can’t fix the fault in 59 seconds, ring maintenance!!
The 195 pbc has no notches.
It displays the brake pressure and throttle pressure on the screens as a percentage.
Interesting, thank you
It's a full training course for the diesels and a 2 day conversion for the electrics.
But no conversion from any other class of unit as what was questioned.
There are a few other anomalies going on at the moment. For example the 14:49 weekday TPE Huddersfield to Leeds stopper service is worked by a Northern Class 170, a Northern driver with a TPE guard.
I think that arrangement is due to end once the Northern hire of 185s ends. The services also carry a TPE driver travelling as a passenger, based on an agreement with ASLEF. That driver will drive once the services go back to 185s.
Why is there a TPE driver as a passenger?
Because it is part of the TPE & ASLEF agreement that every TPE train has a TPE driver on board.
Class 195 training starts THIS WEDNESDAY!!!
Starting with the Classroom then the first mainline drive will be Tue/Wed next week.
What is happening with Northern of late!? End of RMT strikes, electrics on the Bolton route and now they've sorted this one out too!
Were the 331s a separate agreement, or will this agreement also enable training/conversion for the new electric units?