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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

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pemma

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I can only think this is connected with the expectation that CAF would maintain the trains for Northern. I know this was likely to be done by some company other than CAF but on behalf of CAF. Certainly not maintained by the Northern TOC. But I cannot recall whether this has been sorted out so I could be wildly out of date :oops:.

I thought the idea was Alstom would maintain the TPE sets and Arriva Traincare would maintain the Northern sets.

It's rumoured the proposed CAF facility locations are Crewe and Coventry, so if it's the latter then it's probably nothing to do with the maintaining the Northern fleet.
 
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47802

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Which brings us back to them only setting up a plant if they get another significant UK order such as the Tube bid which is potentially such a big order it would likely justify a UK assembly plant, and would be another factor in their bid to compete against such as the joint Bombardier/Hitachi bid, but whether they are successful or not is another matter.

Of course there may be other orders in the pipeline from potential franchise bidders we don't currently know about.
 
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pemma

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Of course there may be other orders in the pipeline from potential franchise bidders we don't currently know about.

Stagecoach have looked at new stock options for their SWT bid:

Lot 1 — South Western Franchise
Supply of a fleet of new build electric and self-powered rolling stock for operation on suburban, commuter and long distance heavy rail passenger routes. For operation on electrified routes, the rolling stock will use the 750 V DC third rail system. It is anticipated that there will be three sub-lots for rolling stock units in differing configurations appropriate to service requirements/routes. Units will be in formations of 80 metres, 100 metres, 120 metres and 240 metres in length and the quantity will range between 60 and 200 units.

http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:433147-2015:TEXT:EN:HTML

But that could be anything from an order of FLIRTs including a few bi-modes to a DMU order large enough to allow all the 158s and 159s to be released.
 

najaB

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Probably will not want to build in the UK if there is no other work for its Spanish facility.
If Brexit wasn't happening they might have done it for a large enough order. However, I think the uncertainty around market access has probably put paid to that idea, unless they get several large enough orders to amortise the cost of a new plant across.
 

superkev

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I've not seen any technical details published like motor/ engine makes/ratings.
Don't CAF usually use Siemens electrics and MAN engines?
K
 

47802

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Stagecoach have looked at new stock options for their SWT bid:



http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:433147-2015:TEXT:EN:HTML

But that could be anything from an order of FLIRTs including a few bi-modes to a DMU order large enough to allow all the 158s and 159s to be released.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a significant order the replace the 158/159's it could kick out a lot of DMU's to be used elsewhere and maybe the worst of the 1 gen sprinters could start to be scrapped. A version of the 195's could probably do the job although Ive no doubt some people would say Waterloo-Exeter should have more of an Intercity feel, maybe Stadler, even CAF or others, can offer more of a bespoke Bi-mode solution?
 
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Bletchleyite

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I wouldn't be surprised to see a significant order the replace the 158/159's it could kick out a lot of DMU's to be used elsewhere and maybe the worst of the 1 gen sprinters could start to be scrapped. A version of the 195's could probably do the job although Ive no doubt some people would say Waterloo-Exeter should have more of an Intercity feel, maybe Stadler, even CAF or others, can offer more of a bespoke Bi-mode solution?

I think bi-mode is certainly merited. Stadler's solution may not be ideal in this case because, with the mini-locomotives and above floor equipment in the cabs, it is slightly wasteful of length, which does seem an important factor sarf ov da Rivva. Will be interesting to see what is offered, though.
 

The Ham

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Stagecoach have looked at new stock options for their SWT bid:

Lot 1 — South Western Franchise
Supply of a fleet of new build electric and self-powered rolling stock for operation on suburban, commuter and long distance heavy rail passenger routes. For operation on electrified routes, the rolling stock will use the 750 V DC third rail system. It is anticipated that there will be three sub-lots for rolling stock units in differing configurations appropriate to service requirements/routes. Units will be in formations of 80 metres, 100 metres, 120 metres and 240 metres in length and the quantity will range between 60 and 200 units.

http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:433147-2015:TEXT:EN:HTML

But that could be anything from an order of FLIRTs including a few bi-modes to a DMU order large enough to allow all the 158s and 159s to be released.

(going off topic) Based on the above that is full unit lengths of 240m (i.e. 10/12 coach length) so following the lead of Thames Link.
 

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WCMLaddict

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An announcement, Rolls Royce has won the contract to supply the 55 Class 195 with 140 Series 1800 engines from its MTU division for £25m.

The Series 1800 are V12 with 760-940 HP the top end one of course being the same one fitted to the IEP.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/03/rolls-royce-connect-midlands-north-winning-rail-deal/

MTU website seems to list 1800 series as a straight six engine with 390 kW max

http://www.mtu-online.com/mtu/products/diesel-engines-overview/general-purpose-diesel-engines/1800/
 

47802

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MTU website seems to list 1800 series as a straight six engine with 390 kW max

http://www.mtu-online.com/mtu/products/diesel-engines-overview/general-purpose-diesel-engines/1800/

I would think that's more likely more typical power output you would expect for a regional DMU its what is fitted to CAF NIR 4000's, and the 172's, and we know the more powerful MTU unit used in IEP isn't easy to fit without raising the floor slightly.

One imagines it will have a ZF gearbox as well essentially a CAF version of a 172.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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I've not seen any technical details published like motor/ engine makes/ratings.
Don't CAF usually use Siemens electrics and MAN engines?
K

The cases I know of in Spain (various types of CAF-built AVE) use an Alstom traction package.
Renfe S-104/114/120.
 
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sprinterguy

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ac6000cw

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This is from the MTU press release (my bold):

FRIEDRICHSHAFEN, GERMANY – Rolls-Royce is to supply 140 environmentally-friendly MTU Series 1800 PowerPacks to Spanish rolling stock manufacturer CAF. The PowerPacks, featuring the 6H 1800 R85L engine, meet the stringent demands of the EU Stage IIIB emissions directive. They are set to power a total of 55 regional trains planned go into service in northern England from December 2018. Arriva Rail North, a subsidiary of the main German rail operator Deutsche Bahn, will operate the trains. The MTU brand is part of Rolls-Royce Power Systems.

Bernd Krüper, Vice President Industrial Business at MTU, said: “We are delighted at having been able, once again, to convince demanding customers in the rail sector of the performance and reliability of our innovative, proven traction solutions.”

The MTU PowerPacks for CAF will deliver 390 kW of power output. A built-in SCR unit will reduce the amount of nitrogen oxide produced, thereby meeting the strict requirements of the EU Stage IIIB emissions directive. Key characteristics of the Series 1800 engines include their high power density and low levels of consumption.

The 55 newly developed British Rail Class 195 diesel railcars – comprising 25 two-car and 30 three-car vehicles – are planned to be used on the future Northern Connect network in the north of England. Northern Connect will link the major cities of Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds and Newcastle with other towns and cities in the region, including Chester, Barrow-in-Furness, Nottingham and Hull. The trains will reach maximum speeds of 160 kilometres per hour.

MTU’s innovative traction and service solutions have been a staple feature of rail transport in the UK for over 60 years now, with more than 1,000 MTU engines currently used in passenger trains in Great Britain.

The British Rail Class 195 trains represent the largest of several joint rail projects between Rolls-Royce and CAF: In Northern Ireland, Italy (Sardinia) and Saudi Arabia, for example, CAF trains were also equipped with MTU engines.

390kW = 522hp, so about what you might expect for a modern 100mph DMU
 
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edwin_m

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The cases I know of in Spain (various types of CAF-built AVE) use an Alstom traction package.
Renfe S-104/114/120.

Being electric trains, the AVEs will have electric traction packages whereas I expect the CAF DMU to have a mechanical or hydostatic transmission. Most manufacturers go to Voith or ZF for these.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Being electric trains, the AVEs will have electric traction packages whereas I expect the CAF DMU to have a mechanical or hydostatic transmission. Most manufacturers go to Voith or ZF for these.

Just spotted this on http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/.../view/engines-ordered-for-civity-uk-dmus.html
Traktionssysteme Austria is to supply traction motors for the 31 three-car and 12 four-car Class 331 electric multiple-units which CAF is to build for Northern

They also appear to be supplying Hitachi's IEP (induction alternators for the MTU diesel engine).
http://www.traktionssysteme.at/en/references/emu__demu
 
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Billy A

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£25m for 140 power packs.
Granted a power pack includes a Voith transmission, a conventional ZF automatic or an alternator and associated bits according to taste, but £175,000 odd per unit seems an impressive amount of money for a truck sized engine with some off the shelf add ons.
 

Geeves

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You would imagine in the engine deal will be some sort of aftersales care thrown in along with warranties and what not. That may well increase the short term price but work out better for Arriva over all in the long run.
 

najaB

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You would imagine in the engine deal will be some sort of aftersales care thrown in along with warranties and what not.
Increasingly, that is how these types of deals are structured. Taking a cue from the aviation industry, airlines tend not to actually own their engines any more, but operate on a power by the hour leasing arrangement (either from a leasing company or directly from the manufacturer). I could see something similar happening with rail power units.
 

Geeves

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I'm fairly sure it already happens in a fashion with current 2nd gen DMUS. I know that Northern basically have a deal with Wabtec or one of the other heavy engineering companies that take the engines away and rebuilds them entirely each time they reach a certain, say 500 thousand miles. All Northern does is detach engine 1 and replace it with engine 2, they just pay a fee each year the franchise runs.
 
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Philip

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Based on what we know of the engine and transmission for 195, what are they most likely to sound similar to in terms of currently operational diesel units?

Can we expect a throaty roar from the exhaust like 185s, a smooth and noisy aeroplane-like sound like 175s, or something more like the odd Turbostars?
 

507 001

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I'm fairly sure it already happens in a fashion with current 2nd gen DMUS. I know that Northern basically have a deal with Wabtec or one of the other heavy engineering companies that take the engines away and rebuilds them entirely each time they reach a certain, say 500 thousand miles. All Northern does is detach engine 1 and replace it with engine 2, they just pay a fee each year the franchise runs.

IIRC you're correct. It used to be Unipart Rail that did the work, but I believe this has recently changed. Indeed, northern units are appearing with green painted engines these days whereas they used to be painted purple, suggesting a different company doing the work.
 

Mikey C

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I find it a bit weird that Bombardier gave up this sort of work when they had a virtual monopoly on such DMUs.
Yes they have plenty of Aventra work at the moment, but when they starts running down they'll be the first to complain and use the patriotic flag.
 

47802

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I find it a bit weird that Bombardier gave up this sort of work when they had a virtual monopoly on such DMUs.
Yes they have plenty of Aventra work at the moment, but when they starts running down they'll be the first to complain and use the patriotic flag.

Well I think they were the view that the future was electric, and they will probably have significant development costs on Aventra DMU, after all they upgraded the Turbostar's into 172's but didn't really get that many orders, I guess if they could have sold 172's without having to update them they might have bid on the Northern tender.

But as electrification seems to go slower by the month they may have to start thinking again at least at a Bi-mode Aventra if not a DMU.
 

47802

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Based on what we know of the engine and transmission for 195, what are they most likely to sound similar to in terms of currently operational diesel units?

Can we expect a throaty roar from the exhaust like 185s, a smooth and noisy aeroplane-like sound like 175s, or something more like the odd Turbostars?

Well if it has ZF transmission which seems likely a 172 I would have thought, as a 172 has the same engine except for it not being compliant with the latest emission standards
 
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Domh245

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Based on what we know of the engine and transmission for 195, what are they most likely to sound similar to in terms of currently operational diesel units?

Can we expect a throaty roar from the exhaust like 185s, a smooth and noisy aeroplane-like sound like 175s, or something more like the odd Turbostars?

Most likely something like a 172 given that they will both have an engine from the same family and may end up with the same gearbox as well.
 

WatcherZero

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I find it a bit weird that Bombardier gave up this sort of work when they had a virtual monopoly on such DMUs.
Yes they have plenty of Aventra work at the moment, but when they starts running down they'll be the first to complain and use the patriotic flag.

A lot of these new train products are designed to accommodate a modular power unit. Its the same shell design, same bogies, same wiring, same train OS software, they just insert a Engine/Electric/Battery module in to the space as appropriate during manufacturing. Gone are the days when you built a carriage around an engine.

This is where Bombardier seems to have missed a beat.
 
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