Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

Haydn1971

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I note that Wikipedia has pages up for the new CAF units for Northern, confirming the class numbers, which I've not seen mentioned on the forum

Source in in here....

http://www.raildeliverygroup.com/files/Publications/2016-03_long_term_passenger_rolling_stock_strategy_4th_ed.pdf

Class 195/0 - 2 carriages - 25 units
Class 195/1 - 3 carriages - 30 units
Class 331/0 - 3 carriages - 31 units
Class 331/0 - 4 carriages - 12 units

Unsure where the sub class references come from - wiki artistic licence ?
 
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D6975

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Already been mentioned on another thread (by me)

And the 4 car 331s are going to be 331/1s, not 331/0s
 
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Mikey C

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A bit odd for the entirely new EMUs to be squeezed into the old numbering system, when the Desiro Cities and new LO trains are all in the 700 range...
 

swt_passenger

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There's no obligation to use the new 700-799 class number range for AC or AC/DC EMUs. Crossrail 345s, Scotrail 385s are also exceptions.

I also don't think they are having to be 'squeezed in' as such, there are still a number of unused class numbers. In principle, any previously used class number can also be reused once the original class is all out of service, although this rarely happens.
 
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aformeruser

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Perhaps simplicity for Northern - they'll have 3 classes of EMU long term (319, 331 and 333) so it's perhaps easier if they all start with 3.

I think it's stranger that 190 has been kept free, it's not as though there's going to be numerous extra DMU classes built by Siemens.
 

D6975

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In principle, any previously used class number can also be reused once the original class is all out of service, although this rarely happens.
More than you would think.
140-144, 150, 165, 166, 168, 170, 171, 172, 175, 180, 185
have all been used twice for multiple units.
 
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Haydn1971

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Yes, they were shown in a table on page 42 of the March 2016 update to the RDG rolling stock strategy: http://www.raildeliverygroup.com/what-we-do/publications.html?task=file.download&id=469762428
Ah, you mean the document I linked to in the first post ;) Rolls eyes ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think it's stranger that 190 has been kept free, it's not as though there's going to be numerous extra DMU classes built by Siemens.
Perhaps it's a sinister plan to rebuild the 142s as express 12 car DMUs ! The Class 190 Super Pacer !
 

edwin_m

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Perhaps simplicity for Northern - they'll have 3 classes of EMU long term (319, 331 and 333) so it's perhaps easier if they all start with 3.
It also puts the three DMU classes partly or wholly built by CAF in the same number block. 334 is already taken so they are having to go downwards instead.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Indeed, is there any other way of confirming these class numbers ?
The class numbers were used in a "New Northern Franchise Commencement Briefing Pack" (a thin, vague, magazine) issued to staff, when showing what staff can "look forward to", using the very same pictures available pretty much everywhere else.
 

Mikey C

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Perhaps simplicity for Northern - they'll have 3 classes of EMU long term (319, 331 and 333) so it's perhaps easier if they all start with 3.

I think it's stranger that 190 has been kept free, it's not as though there's going to be numerous extra DMU classes built by Siemens.
Well Northern folk have difficulties with numbers starting with higher digits, perhaps the 3 classes should be renumbered as 1, 2 and lots :lol:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It also puts the three DMU classes partly or wholly built by CAF in the same number block. 334 is already taken so they are having to go downwards instead.
But why? The 332 and 333 were built by CAF AND Siemens, so they're not even a purely CAF product. They're an unrelated 90s design anyway.
 

route:oxford

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An investor should probable consider making a speculative purchase of 5x 8-car 195 units.

It is reasonably unlikely that any TOC would want to borrow a full 8-car set, but with past Northern Growth considerably underestimated for years, I suspect there is considerable opportunity for leasing centre cars to Northern, "short formed" units to other TOCs and eventually wholesale sale of the 5 units to create 30x 3-car units.
 

edwin_m

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But why? The 332 and 333 were built by CAF AND Siemens, so they're not even a purely CAF product. They're an unrelated 90s design anyway.
Why not? There are no other purely CAF EMUs on Network Rail so it seems sensible to number them with the nearest similar ones even if the similarity isn't great. Anyway, CAF designed all the mechanicals for the 332 and 333, and seems to have re-used much of the design of the bodyshell and possibly other parts for the NIR DMUs and Auckland EMUs, so we may find the 331 is mechanically a very similar unit except for the obvious difference of not having hemispherical ends.
 
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superkev

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Why not? There are no other purely CAF EMUs on Network Rail so it seems sensible to number them with the nearest similar ones even if the similarity isn't great. Anyway, CAF designed all the mechanicals for the 332 and 333, and seems to have re-used much of the design of the bodyshell and possibly other parts for the NIR DMUs and Auckland EMUs, so we may find the 331 is mechanically a very similar unit except for the obvious difference of not having hemispherical ends.
Do CAF usually use Siemens electrics for there emu's and if so I wonder if they will multiple with the 333's
K
 

absolutelymilk

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An investor should probable consider making a speculative purchase of 5x 8-car 195 units.

It is reasonably unlikely that any TOC would want to borrow a full 8-car set, but with past Northern Growth considerably underestimated for years, I suspect there is considerable opportunity for leasing centre cars to Northern, "short formed" units to other TOCs and eventually wholesale sale of the 5 units to create 30x 3-car units.
I would be very impressed with anyone who could get 30x 3 car units from 5x 8 car units.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Do CAF usually use Siemens electrics for there emu's and if so I wonder if they will multiple with the 333's
They have gone with Alstom traction packages in Spain, their home market, for high-speed EMUs.
Their Civity web site carefully doesn't talk about subcontractors.
Deliveries are also thin on the ground (to Italy, Montenegro and Latvia, with NS in Holland on order).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAF_Civity
http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/familia/civity/
 

hairyhandedfool

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I would be very impressed with anyone who could get 30x 3 car units from 5x 8 car units.
:lol::lol: I think you've missed a point (though to be fair it's understandable).

5x 8-car becomes 5x 3-car plus 25 intermediate vehicles, with Arriva having ordered 25x 2-car units. 5+25=30, However this does seem to ignore the other 30x 3-car units already on order.
 

edwin_m

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They have gone with Alstom traction packages in Spain, their home market, for high-speed EMUs.
Their Civity web site carefully doesn't talk about subcontractors.
Deliveries are also thin on the ground (to Italy, Montenegro and Latvia, with NS in Holland on order).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAF_Civity
http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/familia/civity/
I believe the Latvia order was subsequently cancelled and is being re-tendered. Certainly, unless they have implemented a very convincing retro-Soviet design, there were none running in Riga last autumn.

However, a lot of the service experience claimed by other manufacturers for their latest product platforms turns out on closer inspection to be something they produced before the platform was invented. CAF certainly has large amounts of stock in service in Spain, and the existing fleets in the UK are not mentioned at all, so that Wikipedia link puts them in an unflattering light and their own site doesn't appear to claim any service experience at all.
 

class 9

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Perhaps simplicity for Northern - they'll have 3 classes of EMU long term (319, 331 and 333) so it's perhaps easier if they all start with 3.

I think it's stranger that 190 has been kept free, it's not as though there's going to be numerous extra DMU classes built by Siemens.
Don't forget the 321s and 322s.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I believe the Latvia order was subsequently cancelled and is being re-tendered. Certainly, unless they have implemented a very convincing retro-Soviet design, there were none running in Riga last autumn.
However, a lot of the service experience claimed by other manufacturers for their latest product platforms turns out on closer inspection to be something they produced before the platform was invented. CAF certainly has large amounts of stock in service in Spain, and the existing fleets in the UK are not mentioned at all, so that Wikipedia link puts them in an unflattering light and their own site doesn't appear to claim any service experience at all.
I'd be worried about the Italian Civitys if the following is true.
This is what Wikipedia says (out of date and rather vague though):
The Italian region of Friuli Venezia Giuila ordered 8 ETR 563 5-car units in 2010 for Trenitalia. Four more units were ordered, which are able to operate into Slovenia and Austria. The units were delayed into service as they could not be approved
I can't find a more up-to-date/authentic comment.
Then again, the video on the Northern site doesn't look much like the generic Civity on the CAF site (low floor, single door per car etc).
We've really no idea what technology will be in the Northern trains.
 

WatcherZero

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Mmm looking into it the contract was signed March 2011 they were supposed to be in service by Dec 2012 with deliveries complete by 2014.

Physical delivery was only slightly delayed first arriving July 2012 and completed early 2013 (still a pretty good turn around for a train order).

The issue however was CAF believed that they didn't need approval for the model as it was already in service elsewhere in Europe however Italian bureaucracy kicked in and ANSF decided they needed fresh certification which they then dragged their heels on conducting (some kind of protectionist dallying because they weren't Italian built perhaps?). Dynamic testing was finally carried out by the ANSF (Rail safety agency) and RFI (infrastructure operator) in Jan 2014 and they received approval and entered service in early 2015.

The regional Government sued CAF for them failing to enter service and suspended payments for a few months in late 2013 but seems to have been instrumental in finally persuading ANSF to certify them.
 

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