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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

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SteveM70

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I expect this is due to passengers not trusting 6 carriages to turn up, and positioning themselves on the part of the platform most likely to receive a unit, so they can maximise their chances of getting on.

And the absence of corridor connections between the two units which seems to me to be a blindingly obvious design flaw
 
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superkev

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With 195 training at Huddersfield restarting perhaps more of the approx 12 stored and 8 still awaited units may be able to enter service to replace the 12 or so Pacers soldering on at Newton Heath.
It would be interesting to know how many drivers still need to be trained particularly on the west side.
I believe its 3 drivers a week per course.
K
 

talltim

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More PIS observations. Yesterday it was off with manual announcements. Today it said it was at Dronfield, next stop Sheffield when it was at Chesterfield. At Dronfield it had given up claiming to be anywhere. We paused briefly at Dore Junction and it seemed to have worked out where it was and even had data in the due and expected screen.
 

palmersears

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More PIS observations. Yesterday it was off with manual announcements. Today it said it was at Dronfield, next stop Sheffield when it was at Chesterfield. At Dronfield it had given up claiming to be anywhere. We paused briefly at Dore Junction and it seemed to have worked out where it was and even had data in the due and expected screen.
I've experienced similar on the Airport - Lime Street service I use in the morning. It was all over the place until Birchwood, then seemed to correct itself.
 

Spartacus

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To be fair on the CAF units I can remember 185s have similar PIS problems at one point.
 

Mathew S

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Did they? I can't recall ever having come across serious PIS faults on a Desiro.
The 185 PIS isn't great - and has a range of similar problems to the 195s (wrong locations, fictional arrival times, totally incorrect journey details). I've not seen them fall over as often as I've seen the system on the 195s throw a wobbler, but then I don't travel on 185s as often.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The 185 PIS isn't great - and has a range of similar problems to the 195s (wrong locations, fictional arrival times, totally incorrect journey details). I've not seen them fall over as often as I've seen the system on the 195s throw a wobbler, but then I don't travel on 185s as often.

What a poor example of 21st century innovation...:rolleyes:
 

Spartacus

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Did they? I can't recall ever having come across serious PIS faults on a Desiro.

At one point they were forever getting themselves one station out, the number of people who got off at Dewsbury wanting Leeds or Huddersfield, then having to get themselves back on board after quickly realising their mistake, usually after losing their seat..... A number of times if you were held outside a station it would confidently show, and announce that you'd arrived there too.
 

Mathew S

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What a poor example of 21st century innovation...:rolleyes:
Not really. The very pre-21st century PIS on Sprinters is even worse, if it's even working.

The system on the 195s (and the 185s) is perfectly okay the overwhelming majority of the time. It's not perfect, but then perfection isn't a realistic standard.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not really. The very pre-21st century PIS on Sprinters is even worse, if it's even working.

The system on the 195s (and the 185s) is perfectly okay the overwhelming majority of the time. It's not perfect, but then perfection isn't a realistic standard.

It doesn't strike me that electronic on board PIS using GPS is a difficult thing to do properly at all, so I'd expect at least 99.5%. That said, it is (a) done on the cheap, and (b) operated on a background of a railway that still takes the view of "if the wheels turn send it out", with fixing amenities like that a low priority despite being required by PRM TSI. (The bus industry, to be fair, is far worse).

I do find the Desiro system reliable on LNR, probably about the only thing that is. On 195s it's been wrong on every single one I have used at some point during the journey. That's poor.
 

Spartacus

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It doesn't strike me that electronic on board PIS using GPS is a difficult thing to do properly at all, so I'd expect at least 99.5%. That said, it is (a) done on the cheap, and (b) operated on a background of a railway that still takes the view of "if the wheels turn send it out", with fixing amenities like that a low priority despite being required by PRM TSI. (The bus industry, to be fair, is far worse).

I do find the Desiro system reliable on LNR, probably about the only thing that is. On 195s it's been wrong on every single one I have used at some point during the journey. That's poor.

If there was the time and money to have everything right before things get sent out, I'm sure they would be fixed, but sadly there isn't. Funny enough I've been through fault logs for southern based units and there's things logged and attended to that there simply wouldn't be the time or money to deal with elsewhere, it'd not even be worth logging them really. The 170s that came from SWT to TPE were one such case, and some of those came into service offering destinations on their blinds well off the TPE network! :lol:
 

Bletchleyite

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If there was the time and money to have everything right before things get sent out, I'm sure they would be fixed, but sadly there isn't.

I'll be honest, I am in hope of disability campaigners bringing lawsuits for non-PRM TSI compliance for sending out units with non-functional PIS, accessible bogs etc, which would concentrate minds. It might also concentrate minds on not buying cheap rubbish (i.e. TrainFX).
 

geoffk

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Announcements for the following station stop ("we will shortly be arriving at.....") often come too early, especially for Oxford Road only just after leaving Salford Crescent, given the likelihood of delays en route. Also the "platform exits to the left/right" is often incorrect. Yesterday approaching Rochdale it corrected itself in time. This has been commented on before. I guess Spartacus is right about not having the time and money to sort it all out before they enter service.
 

Spartacus

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I'll be honest, I am in hope of disability campaigners bringing lawsuits for non-PRM TSI compliance for sending out units with non-functional PIS, accessible bogs etc, which would concentrate minds. It might also concentrate minds on not buying cheap rubbish (i.e. TrainFX).

Sure, when the regions get the same public transport funding per capita as the capital. In the meantime it would just lead to a hell of a lot of cancellations or nobody actually bothering to bid for franchises.
 

Mathew S

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You must have a different way of viewing "okay" than I have.
When I say "okay" I mean display accurate information - I'm not really sure what more you can ask of it.
It doesn't strike me that electronic on board PIS using GPS is a difficult thing to do properly at all, so I'd expect at least 99.5%. That said, it is (a) done on the cheap, and (b) operated on a background of a railway that still takes the view of "if the wheels turn send it out", with fixing amenities like that a low priority despite being required by PRM TSI. (The bus industry, to be fair, is far worse).

I do find the Desiro system reliable on LNR, probably about the only thing that is. On 195s it's been wrong on every single one I have used at some point during the journey. That's poor.
People expect far too much of GPS based systems - they're just not as reliable or accurate as people think they are unless a disproportionate amount of money is put into developing them (which, I'm sure we can all agree, hasn't happened here). In reality, while GPS should be able to tell which station you're at, it's not going to be accurate enough to determine whether, for example, a train is in platform 3 or platform 4 at Manchester Oxford Road. And it's certainly not going to be able to do that before the train arrives in the station!
I think it's necessary to inject a bit of realism here. No, the systems aren't perfect. They are a heck of a lot better, though, than anything on any other trains that operate in this part of the world and - in fairness to Northern and CAF - updates are happening frequently which are steadily ironing out the problems.
 

thejuggler

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The continual door closing warnings need to go. Passengers do think once they close thats it and they will miss the train.
 

superkev

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It was suggested on the 331 forum that there where just 5 195s awaiting delivery. Is this true?
I have 8, 195 021 to 025 plus the 3 extra 3 cars ordered later 195 131 to 133 as well as around 12 in store or used as trainers.
K
 

Killingworth

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More PIS observations. Yesterday it was off with manual announcements. Today it said it was at Dronfield, next stop Sheffield when it was at Chesterfield. At Dronfield it had given up claiming to be anywhere. We paused briefly at Dore Junction and it seemed to have worked out where it was and even had data in the due and expected screen.

Both EMR and TPE eastbound trains that stop at Dore are often late causing MML services to be held while the single line is cleared. It's quite common for passengers to alight at Dore expecting to be in Sheffield because that's where they should be at that time! Most look dazed and are directed back on. Probably nothing to do with CIS, but audible announcements aren't too clear on most trains.
 

Llama

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When I say "okay" I mean display accurate information - I'm not really sure what more you can ask of it.

People expect far too much of GPS based systems - they're just not as reliable or accurate as people think they are unless a disproportionate amount of money is put into developing them (which, I'm sure we can all agree, hasn't happened here). In reality, while GPS should be able to tell which station you're at, it's not going to be accurate enough to determine whether, for example, a train is in platform 3 or platform 4 at Manchester Oxford Road. And it's certainly not going to be able to do that before the train arrives in the station!
I think it's necessary to inject a bit of realism here. No, the systems aren't perfect. They are a heck of a lot better, though, than anything on any other trains that operate in this part of the world and - in fairness to Northern and CAF - updates are happening frequently which are steadily ironing out the problems.
The PIS system on 195s (and 331s) is simply awful and woefully unreliable. And re regular updates, if only that was the case.
 

Bertie the bus

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Exactly. The PIS on the 195s is simply rubbish. To me, having occasional glances at it to see how wrong it is is mild amusement. To someone who needs the PIS, and those people are the reason PIS are installed on public transport, it will be less amusing.
 

Llama

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The PIS system on 195s is 50/50 whether it even accepts certain headcodes. It can't cope with the fact it goes over the same bit of line twice at Bradford Interchange (consistently shows incorrect station), announces that the train is too long for the platform randomly on approach to stations when it blatantly isn't, announces and displays correctly in one unit of a coupled pair but not the other, stops or starts doing announcements when it feels like, sticks on 'not in service', displays doors opening on the wrong side on internal displays, sometimes decides to announce 'a station behind' and anyone who's been on a 331 stopping at Mauldeth Rd then Piccadilly will probably have heard how it thinks Slade Lane Jn and Longsight Depot Jn are also both Mauldeth Rd. The PIS also throws up intrusive faults on the TCMS while it decides whether it is going to accept the perfectly valid input or not.

I had a 319 unit with TrainFX PIS last night which is widely regarded as cheap rubbish but even that was a breath of fresh air and worked perfectly for the entire journey.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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People expect far too much of GPS based systems - they're just not as reliable or accurate as people think they are unless a disproportionate amount of money is put into developing them (which, I'm sure we can all agree, hasn't happened here).

A comparative that affects me personally is Google. Until we moved home in the last week or so, it was spot on with our exact home location in "The Golden Triangle", but we have only moved a matter of a few miles to the north of the previous residence to the area of Handforth that abuts Wilmslow, still in Cheshire East. Google seemed unable to come to terms with this move and thinks we are in Middleton, some miles north of Manchester..o_O
 

Bletchleyite

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A comparative that affects me personally is Google. Until we moved home in the last week or so, it was spot on with our exact home location in "The Golden Triangle", but we have only moved a matter of a few miles to the north of the previous residence to the area of Handforth that abuts Wilmslow, still in Cheshire East. Google seemed unable to come to terms with this move and thinks we are in Middleton, some miles north of Manchester..o_O

That won't be an issue with GPS, it'll be an issue with wifi location which Google uses to clarify locations either where GPS is off or not present. Someone who used to live in Middleton will have moved to near you, and it'll still think they are there.
 

palmersears

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It was suggested on the 331 forum that there where just 5 195s awaiting delivery. Is this true?
I have 8, 195 021 to 025 plus the 3 extra 3 cars ordered later 195 131 to 133 as well as around 12 in store or used as trainers.
K
022 I saw at Edge Hill earlier in the week, and there's looks to be another 2 car arriving today.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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That won't be an issue with GPS, it'll be an issue with wifi location which Google uses to clarify locations either where GPS is off or not present. Someone who used to live in Middleton will have moved to near you, and it'll still think they are there.

But therefore, it also knew where we lived previously, so why does it not still show our former location in that case?
 

Jamesrob637

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022 I saw at Edge Hill earlier in the week, and there's looks to be another 2 car arriving today.

So unless 022 arrived before 021 that's just 3 more 2-car sets to go? Excellent progress; let's just see them in revenue service soon
How about the 3-cars? Superkev reckons all 30 of the first order are here now, but when will the add-ons arrive?
 
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