Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[AlexNL]

Similar cockups can be seen elsewhere in Europe, for example with some vehicles built by Stadler. Back when the current Venlo - Düsseldorf - Hamm concession was granted to Eurobahn, a bunch of FLIRT's was ordered at Stadler (FLIRT-1). As these sets would cross the border, the Dutch safety authority wanted a safety certification for them.

By the time the necessary paperwork was received by the Dutch authorities, the norms had been enhanced and the train no longer met crashworthiness requirements. Subsequently, the safety certificate was not provided and the trains were not allowed to run on the Dutch network.

In the mean time, DB provided alternative transport with LHCS. It was not for a couple of months until an exception was granted: the trains are allowed to run on Dutch soil, but at a top speed of 65 km/h. As the Venlo - Kaldenkirchen bit is only 4 km long (and partly runs through the Venlo yard) the impact of this restriction on the timetable is negligable.

Do note: the platform in Venlo is as German as can be: there is 15 kV AC electrification and Indusi train protection is available. The only difference is the look of the signal at the end of the platform: this is Dutch and not German.

 

[pemma]

Don't forget the 321s and 322s.

jcollins was right to not include them, all BR EMUs in the Northern franchise (aside from Class 319) are being replaced.

Indeed. The 32xs in Yorkshire are being replaced by a greater number of 3 car CAF EMUs so 6 car formations can operate on the busiest services.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd be worried about the Italian Civitys if the following is true.
This is what Wikipedia says (out of date and rather vague though):

I can't find a more up-to-date/authentic comment.
Then again, the video on the Northern site doesn't look much like the generic Civity on the CAF site (low floor, single door per car etc).
We've really no idea what technology will be in the Northern trains.

Perhaps something like the amount of resemblance (or the lack of it) between the Desiro UK and Desiro-branded units on the Continent.

However, I hope CAF has some people on board who understand the UK safety approvals process. Although the signalling compatibility issue isn't what it was, this will be the first new manufacturer trying to get an EMU through the approval process for over a decade, which is long enough for people to forget the pitfalls involved.

 

[Geeves]

I think we do have a little bit of an idea of the sort of trains Northern will be getting and they are running well down in Auckland New Zealand.

These are high floor, restricted loading guage units running on UK-esc 3 and 4 aspect signalling. So all good experience for the UK market.Not to mention CAF have alot of experience building metre and standard gauge stock for the Spanish market too.

Auckland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_AM_class_electric_multiple_unit

Barcelona

http://www.fgc.cat/downloads/notes_premsa/descarga_2/ut113.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkWM-T5m5J8

 

[coppercapped]

Perhaps something like the amount of resemblance (or the lack of it) between the Desiro UK and Desiro-branded units on the Continent.

However, I hope CAF has some people on board who understand the UK safety approvals process. Although the signalling compatibility issue isn't what it was, this will be the first new manufacturer trying to get an EMU through the approval process for over a decade, which is long enough for people to forget the pitfalls involved.

Regarding the approvals process, as I understand the current state of play, CAF will have to use the European system for gaining the necessary paperwork to operate in the UK just as Hitachi is doing with the Class 80x family. The basis is that on 14 March 2014, the EU Council of Transport Ministers agreed as part of the Fourth Railway Package that the European Railway Agency (ERA) would act as a 'one-stop shop' for safety certification and vehicle authorisation. It can issue single European-wide safety certificates to operators and single European vehicle authorisations to manufacturers.

The paperwork flows and number of specialised bodies involved is mind-boggling.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think we do have a little bit of an idea of the sort of trains Northern will be getting and they are running well down in Auckland New Zealand.
These are high floor, restricted loading guage units running on UK-esc 3 and 4 aspect signalling. So all good experience for the UK market.Not to mention CAF have alot of experience building metre and standard gauge stock for the Spanish market too.

There may well be some similarities between the Auckland EMUs and Northern's, but at the PR level the NZ ones are from CAF's "Commuter" family, whereas Northern's are from the "Regional" Civity stable.
Auckland's are also rated at 110kph (70mph) which is not the 100mph level of performance which Northern needs. Auckland is also a narrow gauge 3ft6in network.
I'd guess they have more in common with the (very nice) Euskotren metre gauge EMUs in Spain.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I think we do have a little bit of an idea of the sort of trains Northern will be getting and they are running well down in Auckland New Zealand.

These are high floor, restricted loading guage units running on UK-esc 3 and 4 aspect signalling. So all good experience for the UK market.Not to mention CAF have alot of experience building metre and standard gauge stock for the Spanish market too.

Auckland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_AM_class_electric_multiple_unit

Barcelona

http://www.fgc.cat/downloads/notes_premsa/descarga_2/ut113.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkWM-T5m5J8

And their work on the Auckland electrification project has given them a lot of experience of using Mark 3 OLE, for some unfathomable reason, that's what KiwiRail selected.

 

[Mordac]

I think we do have a little bit of an idea of the sort of trains Northern will be getting and they are running well down in Auckland New Zealand.

These are high floor, restricted loading guage units running on UK-esc 3 and 4 aspect signalling. So all good experience for the UK market.Not to mention CAF have alot of experience building metre and standard gauge stock for the Spanish market too.

Auckland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_AM_class_electric_multiple_unit

Barcelona

http://www.fgc.cat/downloads/notes_premsa/descarga_2/ut113.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkWM-T5m5J8

Spain (and Portugal) run on Iberian gauge outwith High Speed Lines (1,668 mm). They do have some experience of the UK market in delivering NIR's stock, but I'm not sure how different the approval process is there.

 

[edwin_m]

Spain (and Portugal) run on Iberian gauge outwith High Speed Lines (1,668 mm). They do have some experience of the UK market in delivering NIR's stock, but I'm not sure how different the approval process is there.

The key difference is that that was a diesel and this is an electric, with all the complications relating to return current.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Regarding the approvals process, as I understand the current state of play, CAF will have to use the European system for gaining the necessary paperwork to operate in the UK just as Hitachi is doing with the Class 80x family. The basis is that on 14 March 2014, the EU Council of Transport Ministers agreed as part of the Fourth Railway Package that the European Railway Agency (ERA) would act as a 'one-stop shop' for safety certification and vehicle authorisation. It can issue single European-wide safety certificates to operators and single European vehicle authorisations to manufacturers.

The paperwork flows and number of specialised bodies involved is mind-boggling.

I'm not familiar with the current process but my guess would be that the Euro--process covers all the TSIs but a national process is still required to cover compliance with the relevant notified national standards.

 

[WatcherZero]

No, as I understand it you can elect either for a national certification good only in the one country or a more complicated Euro-process that certifies it to operate in any country. Latter process offers distinct advantage if one service would be operating through multiple countries, or if your hoping to sell your rolling stock to other countries it saves time.

 

[coppercapped]

No, as I understand it you can elect either for a national certification good only in the one country or a more complicated Euro-process that certifies it to operate in any country. Latter process offers distinct advantage if one service would be operating through multiple countries, or if your hoping to sell your rolling stock to other countries it saves time.

If I have correctly understood the introductory documents an operator can elect to have permission to operate in only one country or go for the Euro-approval which means it can operate in any country with the one 'no objection' document. The latter is important for freight operators and passenger operations such as Eurostar or for new entrants, such as DBAG which may be planning a Frankfurt - London service, which then no longer has to get separate certificates from each of France, possibly Belgium if so routed, the Channel Tunnel and HS1.

Rolling stock now has to be approved via the Euro-approval process. As I understand it national requirements now have to be defined in a Euro Standard (EN) which in turn becomes part of national law. The EN is incorporated into the approvals package. This is all designed to prevent countries using national standards to keep out equipment made elsewhere.

 

[edwin_m]

As I understand it, most or all of the Group Standards now have the status of Notified National Standards, which means that the Euro-approval process must take account of them if use in Britain is envisaged.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Indeed. The 32xs in Yorkshire are being replaced by a greater number of 3 car CAF EMUs so 6 car formations can operate on the busiest services.

So where will Northern's dusty bins go when they're replaced? They're too reliable to be scrapped!

 

[D365]

There's a whole glutton of newer EMUs going spare in the next few years - 17x 323 (Northern), 10x 350/4 (TPE), 26x 360 (Greater Anglia and Heathrow), 21x 365 (Great Northern), 30x 379 (Greater Anglia). Don't forget that several of the Greater Anglia 321s will be fully refurbished despite their imminent replacement.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The TPE 350s are mooted to be heading to LM as they run a similar fleet

 

[RobShipway]

There's a whole glutton of newer EMUs going spare in the next few years - 17x 323 (Northern), 10x 350/4 (TPE), 26x 360 (Greater Anglia and Heathrow), 21x 365 (Great Northern), 30x 379 (Greater Anglia). Don't forget that several of the Greater Anglia 321s will be fully refurbished despite their imminent replacement.

It is going to be interesting where this spare stock will end up.

The TPE 350s are mooted to be heading to LM as they run a similar fleet

I can also see LM possibly taking the ex Heathrow class 360s as well.

 

[Mollman]

There's a whole glutton of newer EMUs going spare in the next few years - 17x 323 (Northern), 10x 350/4 (TPE), 26x 360 (Greater Anglia and Heathrow), 21x 365 (Great Northern), 30x 379 (Greater Anglia). Don't forget that several of the Greater Anglia 321s will be fully refurbished despite their imminent replacement.

As I understand it the 323s are going to LM and Northern were not allowed to keep them long term - needed to West Mids for extension of Cross City to Bromsgrove and Chase Line Electrification

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can also see LM possibly taking the ex Heathrow class 360s as well.

A few 5-car sets would allow better matching of capacity to demand - there are quite a number of peak LM trains where 8-car is too short but 12-car is excessive and leads to many empty seats.

5-car sets would allow the formation of 4, 5, 8, 9, 10 and 12-car, which would be more flexible for LM.

 

[pemma]

As I understand it the 323s are going to LM and Northern were not allowed to keep them long term - needed to West Mids for extension of Cross City to Bromsgrove and Chase Line Electrification

That's incorrect. DfT allowed LM to increase the number of 350/3s they received from 7 to 10 so that an internal cascade could cover Bromsgrove electrification without the need to receive further electric trains.

Porterbrook (who own the 319s and 323s) decided to not allow Northern bidders to have access to the 323s after the 31st December 2018. That decision was believed to be partly to get Northern bidders to take on more 319s and partly so that the next LM franchise had the option of taking on all the 323s from 1st January 2019. However, if that was the intention it has potentially backfired for Porterbrook as Arriva have ordered new 331s to replace the 323s. It remains to be seen if the winning LM bidder proposes making use of all the 323s from January 2019 - there's plenty of other EMU options they can propose as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whatever the new LM bidder does, I would expect them, if they can, to obtain more EMUs of whatever kind so they can reshuffle a bit and get rid of the Class 319s, with an all-Desiro fleet on the south WCML.

 

[1179_Clee2]

Whatever the new LM bidder does, I would expect them, if they can, to obtain more EMUs of whatever kind so they can reshuffle a bit and get rid of the Class 319s, with an all-Desiro fleet on the south WCML.

They can go with a 100% Desiro fleet on the WCML.
The question is what with?

10 x Class 350/4
21 x Class 360/0
5 x Class 360/2

All of which are available.

 

[47802]

They can go with a 100% Desiro fleet on the WCML.
The question is what with?

10 x Class 350/4
21 x Class 360/0
5 x Class 360/2

All of which are available.

There is clearly some logic to suggest that potentially at least some of these will go to the West Midlands franchise but that's no certainty it will actually happen of course, I notice Abellio seemed to smooth over potential arguments with Siemens over the Anglia order fairly quickly, are they perhaps proposing some new Siemens trains for the West Midlands franchise, just wild speculation of course and not really relevant to Northern's CAF order.

We are getting new EMU's from 5 different manufacturers so it will interesting to compare although not totally equal comparison you've got the Stadler in IC config, CAF/Hitachi in Medium distance config, and Bombardier/Siemens in more Metro config.

 

[Mordac]

There is clearly some logic to suggest that potentially at least some of these will go to the West Midlands franchise but that's no certainty it will actually happen of course, I notice Abellio seemed to smooth over potential arguments with Siemens over the Anglia order fairly quickly, are they perhaps proposing some new Siemens trains for the West Midlands franchise, just wild speculation of course and not really relevant to Northern's CAF order.

We are getting new EMU's from 5 different manufacturers so it will interesting to compare although not totally equal comparison you've got the Stadler in IC config, CAF/Hitachi in Medium distance config, and Bombardier/Siemens in more Metro config.

Don't forget the 80x, those are IC surely

 

[D365]

Don't forget the 80x, those are IC surely

Which are Hitachi units

 

[Mordac]

Which are Hitachi units

Yes, but not medium distance. :P

 

[jayiscupid]

Yes, but not medium distance. :P

I think they're referring to the AT200 for Scotrail

 

[Bantamzen]

Just thinking about timescales for the 195/331 builds, when might we expect the first sightings, or publicity shots of these new units? I'm guessing the second half of new year? Not that I'm impatient or anything, but I can't wait for these shiny new units to make their debt up here. It's been a long time since we've had "new train smell" up in this part of the world (West Yorkshire so I'm not including the TPE 350s).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just thinking about timescales for the 195/331 builds, when might we expect the first sightings, or publicity shots of these new units? I'm guessing the second half of new year? Not that I'm impatient or anything, but I can't wait for these shiny new units to make their debt up here. It's been a long time since we've had "new train smell" up in this part of the world (West Yorkshire so I'm not including the TPE 350s).

Someone will be along shortly to cite the 333s serving your area... Not me though, I have standing space on 185s for the foreseeable!

 

[D365]

How about South Yorkshire, when was the last time we had new trains on stopping services?

 

[pemma]

How about South Yorkshire, when was the last time we had new trains on stopping services?

I'd call this a stopping service in South Yorkshire: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81145/2016/10/18/advanced and it's operated by a modern 185.

But you could argue any TPE service serving Meadowhall is a stopping service for that section as there aren't any stations between Sheffield and Meadowhall.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is clearly some logic to suggest that potentially at least some of these will go to the West Midlands franchise but that's no certainty it will actually happen of course, I notice Abellio seemed to smooth over potential arguments with Siemens over the Anglia order fairly quickly, are they perhaps proposing some new Siemens trains for the West Midlands franchise, just wild speculation of course and not really relevant to Northern's CAF order.

It's unlikely that any new Siemens trains would be compatible with the old 350/360 models.