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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

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Chester1

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Thanks for the update. It's going to be have been "jam tomorrow" regarding new trains for passengers in the North of England for over three years by the time any of the new Northern or TPE fleets even begin to enter service at this rate. Longer still if you also include the new East Coast stock. I'm accustomed to the glacial pace of progress on the railway, but what's even more frustrating is the seeming inability of any operator to meet their announced deadlines for the introduction of new stock.

CAF seems to be particularly unreliable at getting new classes into service. A least Manchester-Preston electrification has been finished and is being tested. The 323s can cover for the 331s until the end of the year and pacers can cover for 195s through delaying the internal cascade. It looks like some of the 769s will be in service by May too. I think its fair to assume that most new longer distance services planned for May will now be delayed until December. Hopefully there are still enough units to extend the Calder Valley service to Chester
 
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sprinterguy

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At least Manchester-Preston electrification has been finished and is being tested. The 323s can cover for the 331s until the end of the year and pacers can cover for 195s through delaying the internal cascade. It looks like some of the 769s will be in service by May too. I think its fair to assume that most new longer distance services planned for May will now be delayed until December. Hopefully there are still enough units to extend the Calder Valley service to Chester
Only a couple of years behind schedule. :| It's easy to understand why passengers might be sceptical about the promise of new trains and improved services given the current tranche of delayed projects and fleet introductions. It's just as well that there is some flexibility in the lease end dates for some of Northern's existing fleets, and at least the Manchester - Preston electrification has been energised now, even if no promised introduction date for electric trains is in sight (Getting off topic, apologies): As I trundled up to Preston on yet another Pacer late last year, I was beginning to wonder whether Network Rail had installed all those miles of complex looking overhead catenary purely for the look of the thing. ;)
 

notlob.divad

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I saw that move when I looked on RTT yesterday and did wonder. There is also this 2nd one from Allerton to Edge Hill.
I wondered if they were taking it back to Edge Hill where CAF have been based during the commissioning of these, but found it strange that they would Pass Edge Hill twice in order to do so. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S00175/2019/01/03/advanced
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There were at least 7 CAF units (195/331) parked up at Edge Hill today, and another 3 195s at Allerton.
Northern don't seem in much of a hurry to get these prize assets into service.
 

Chester1

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Only a couple of years behind schedule. :| It's easy to understand why passengers might be sceptical about the promise of new trains and improved services given the current tranche of delayed projects and fleet introductions. It's just as well that there is some flexibility in the lease end dates for some of Northern's existing fleets, and at least the Manchester - Preston electrification has been energised now, even if no promised introduction date for electric trains is in sight (Getting off topic, apologies): As I trundled up to Preston on yet another Pacer late last year, I was beginning to wonder whether Network Rail had installed all those miles of complex looking overhead catenary purely for the look of the thing. ;)

Part of the "I will believe it when I see it" view is about some people needing a sense of grievance about stuff than having a rational basis. Its all clearly happening, although very late. Plenty of people will moan about the 195s.
 

Mogster

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Plenty of people will moan about the 195s.

Definitely. The 142s will be soon forgotten... either that or remembered fondly with deep rose tinted glasses...

The moaning about the other new stock proves that. There’s probably 100s of other satisfied people You don’t hear from though.
 

js1000

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Part of the "I will believe it when I see it" view is about some people needing a sense of grievance about stuff than having a rational basis. Its all clearly happening, although very late. Plenty of people will moan about the 195s.
Have I missed something? What makes you say that?
 

LittleAH

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There were at least 7 CAF units (195/331) parked up at Edge Hill today, and another 3 195s at Allerton.
Northern don't seem in much of a hurry to get these prize assets into service.

Don't expect to see any CAF trains in service before the May TT change.
 

Chester1

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Definitely. The 142s will be soon forgotten... either that or remembered fondly with deep rose tinted glasses...

The moaning about the other new stock proves that. There’s probably 100s of other satisfied people You don’t hear from though.

Have I missed something? What makes you say that?

Monster explained it a few minutes before your post. A significant number of people either do not like change or moan about nearly everything. Just because pacers going and 195s (eventually) arriving is a vast improvement, that will not change.
 

Andyh82

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Have I missed something? What makes you say that?
Hard seats and/or dirty seats due to them using flat cloth and/or not enough seats when 2 car ones turn up on their own at a busy time seem like the likely complaints.
 

js1000

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I'm sure I saw a video of one on the Barrow line and it already had rattling panels.
Hopefully that's not something that becomes ubiquitous with this class like they did with Bombardier 170/2s.
Sam
I did see that video. Hopefully it can be rectified or avoided with future units that are built.
 

modernrail

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Hard seats and/or dirty seats due to them using flat cloth and/or not enough seats when 2 car ones turn up on their own at a busy time seem like the likely complaints.
It seems nuts that any 2 car units have been ordered. 100 per cent guaranteed that Northern will use the opportunity to short form services.
 

Agent_Squash

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It seems nuts that any 2 car units have been ordered. 100 per cent guaranteed that Northern will use the opportunity to short form services.

There’s physically not enough units to shortform to the extent you describe.
 

northernchris

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The routes they will be assigned to and the number of units that have been ordered mean they will always run as individual units.

If that's the case why were a lot of platforms extended - especially on the Calder Valley where the 195s are due to operate? I would have thought as a minimum capacity would be the same as now, so routes like Liverpool - Manchester Airport will require double units
 

modernrail

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If that's the case why were a lot of platforms extended - especially on the Calder Valley where the 195s are due to operate? I would have thought as a minimum capacity would be the same as now, so routes like Liverpool - Manchester Airport will require double units
I am also confused. Which routes will run with 2 car 195's as standard?
 

Mogster

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I don’t understand why 2 car 195s were even ordered.

Of course if you have a 4 car train you can’t short form it. However if your 4 car train is made of 2 sets of 2 units it’s not a problem... :|
 

tbtc

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The routes they will be assigned to and the number of units that have been ordered mean they will always run as individual units.

Two coach 195s will always run as two coach trains?

That's going to mean fewer seats on a number of services as a two coach 195 will have fewer seats than a two coach 158 on routes like Sheffield - Hull or Nottingham - Leeds (due to the "universal" toilet, the wider doors etc).

My understanding was that the 195s weren't going to be working 100% of "Connect" services, so I wouldn't worry about the numbers too much - 158s (or 170s etc) will infill.

But I agree with @Mogster - we should't have ordered two coach trains (without at least corridor connections) - I'd rather have had marginally fewer carriages if it had meant three/four coach bi-modes (but, I appreciate, too late to worry about that kind of aspiration!).
 

Chester1

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I am also confused. Which routes will run with 2 car 195's as standard?

I might be completely wrong but I have only see official stuff about doubling up the 3 coach 331s for services into Leeds.
Probably some will be a mix of 2 and 3 coach units. Maybe I am wrong that there will be no double sets but the 58 units will be stretched very thin to have many.

I don’t understand why 2 car 195s were even ordered.

Of course if you have a 4 car train you can’t short form it. However if your 4 car train is made of 2 sets of 2 units it’s not a problem... :|

Probably because the Roscos did not want to invest too much money on DMUs which may or may not have work for 30+ years.

Two coach 195s will always run as two coach trains?

That's going to mean fewer seats on a number of services as a two coach 195 will have fewer seats than a two coach 158 on routes like Sheffield - Hull or Nottingham - Leeds (due to the "universal" toilet, the wider doors etc).

My understanding was that the 195s weren't going to be working 100% of "Connect" services, so I wouldn't worry about the numbers too much - 158s (or 170s etc) will infill.

But I agree with @Mogster - we should't have ordered two coach trains (without at least corridor connections) - I'd rather have had marginally fewer carriages if it had meant three/four coach bi-modes (but, I appreciate, too late to worry about that kind of aspiration!).

I think refurbished 158s will only be running about 10% of connect services e.g. Carlisle-Middlesbrough

Northern have now order 25 x 2 and 33 x 3. That and maybe 6 x 158 need to run 12 services all of which are more than 1 hour journeys and some nearly 3 hours.
 

Whistler40145

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I did hear the other day that Northern could be using 195s on the Blackpool North to York services so 158s could be used on other services. I'm sure this was an interview on BBC North West Tonight.
 

superkev

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I did hear the other day that Northern could be using 195s on the Blackpool North to York services so 158s could be used on other services. I'm sure this was an interview on BBC North West Tonight.
Lots rumours kicking around Northen these days. I even heard mention 332s where heading north so I believe it when I see it.
With the slightly slower to board end doors I would have thought longer routes like Blackpool - York best suite 158s.
K
 

Whistler40145

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Lots rumours kicking around Northen these days. I even heard mention 332s where heading north so I believe it when I see it.
With the slightly slower to board end doors I would have thought longer routes like Blackpool - York best suite 158s.
K
I think it was to release 158s for the North East services
 

Bletchleyite

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The routes they will be assigned to and the number of units that have been ordered mean they will always run as individual units.

Ah, so you mean they will *always* be short-formed, i.e. 2s will run as 2s.

Utter disgrace; there is no room for 2-car running on the mainline any more and it needs to cease, particularly through Castlefield where there is a strong case to ban anything shorter than 3x23m or possibly even 4x20m. Though maybe another year of strikes will reduce passenger numbers further until this is adequate.
 
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