Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[sprinterguy]

It's all very well saying the new units would be better suited to local work, but a franchise as subsidised as Northern is very lucky to be getting any new stock in the first place, especially under the current rather tight fisted government we're all enjoying.

There's little evidence of a tight fisted government behind the recently let Transpennine Express, Greater Anglia or Transport for Wales franchises, all of which are provincial operations that are seeing large scale to total replacement of their existing train fleets, a number of which are significantly younger than anything that Northern operates.

While let by the Welsh government rather than the DfT, I would assume that the TfW franchise is subsidised to at least the same extent as Northern, with a comparable network of dispersed regional and rural services, better patronised urban services (in the Cardiff area), and a large fleet of ageing (but far better refurbished) Pacer and Sprinter trains.

I'm not sure why it's only Northern that seems to have to feel lucky for whatever it can get.

Then perhaps the 195s should go on local services and the 175s be brought back into Northern (with a good refurb, but NOT new seats) for the Connect routes?

I'd be all for that if their reliability is still holding up when they become available. If they were concentrated on the Connect routes focused on the North West then maintenance could remain tied to Chester depot. Would allow 195s to take over from the tattiest Newton Heath 150s. There's over thirty 150/1s (Which will all be with Northern once the West Midlands units move north) still with their original Ashbourne seating for starters.

 

[craigybagel]

There's little evidence of a tight fisted government behind the recently let Transpennine Express, Greater Anglia or Transport for Wales franchises, all of which are provincial operations that are seeing large scale to total replacement of their existing train fleets, a number of which are significantly younger than anything that Northern operates.

While let by the Welsh government rather than the DfT, I would assume that the TfW franchise is subsidised to at least the same extent as Northern, with a comparable network of dispersed regional and rural services, better patronised urban services (in the Cardiff area), and a large fleet of ageing (but far better refurbished) Pacer and Sprinter trains.

I'm not sure why it's only Northern that seems to have to feel lucky for whatever it can get.

Transpennine and Greater Anglia aren't as heavily subsidised as Northern is. TfW is, thats true - but you mentioned yourself the difference; it was the Welsh Assemblys doing.

I'm not having a go at Northern - it's long suffering passengers deserve a more modern fleet, and yes the 150s and 156s ideally should be leaving sooner rather then later. They're just very unfortunate to be a heavily subsidised franchise that doesn't have a devolved Government sugar daddy to support it like TfW and ScotRail.

Then perhaps the 195s should go on local services and the 175s be brought back into Northern (with a good refurb, but NOT new seats) for the Connect routes?

I'd be all for that if their reliability is still holding up when they become available. If they were concentrated on the Connect routes focused on the North West then maintenance could remain tied to Chester depot. Would allow 195s to take over from the tattiest Newton Heath 150s. There's over thirty 150/1s (Which will all be with Northern once the West Midlands units move north) still with their original Ashbourne seating for starters.

As big a fan as I am of 175s (I'm sitting on one right now!) even I would be forced to admit that they aren't great at dealing with crowds. A large part of the Connect network will still be moving commuters around and these really aren't the best units for that kind of work. Network Rail isn't keen on this type of unit being used through platforms 13 and 14 at Manchester Piccadilly for example, and for very good reason.

Now 170s on the other hand - yes they'd be perfect for connect.

 

[Meerkat]

Is there a table somewhere that compares pence/mile fares on various franchises or lines?

Sorry, off topic, should be somewhere else....

 

[Mogster]

It seems there’s not enough 170s to go round...

 

[sprinterguy]

As big a fan as I am of 175s (I'm sitting on one right now!) even I would be forced to admit that they aren't great at dealing with crowds. A large part of the Connect network will still be moving commuters around and these really aren't the best units for that kind of work. Network Rail isn't keen on this type of unit being used through platforms 13 and 14 at Manchester Piccadilly for example, and for very good reason.

Now 170s on the other hand - yes they'd be perfect for connect.

Yeah, you do have a point that all of the Connect services in the North West will have to act as Manchester commuter services at some stage in their journeys.

It seems there’s not enough 170s to go round...

At least there's a fairly large number coming off lease from WMT at (hopefully) the end of next year, though I anticipate a high level of interest.

 

[LittleAH]

There's little evidence of a tight fisted government behind the recently let Transpennine Express, Greater Anglia or Transport for Wales franchises, all of which are provincial operations that are seeing large scale to total replacement of their existing train fleets, a number of which are significantly younger than anything that Northern operates.

While let by the Welsh government rather than the DfT, I would assume that the TfW franchise is subsidised to at least the same extent as Northern, with a comparable network of dispersed regional and rural services, better patronised urban services (in the Cardiff area), and a large fleet of ageing (but far better refurbished) Pacer and Sprinter trains.

I'm not sure why it's only Northern that seems to have to feel lucky for whatever it can get.

I'd be all for that if their reliability is still holding up when they become available. If they were concentrated on the Connect routes focused on the North West then maintenance could remain tied to Chester depot. Would allow 195s to take over from the tattiest Newton Heath 150s. There's over thirty 150/1s (Which will all be with Northern once the West Midlands units move north) still with their original Ashbourne seating for starters.

TPE doesn't receive any government subsidies, so any losses fall on them, or their parent company in this case First.

 

[Andyh82]

And of course the only reason Northern is more subsidised than most is that they had the TPE services moved away into a separate franchise. I’m sure if you took the Intercity and Inner Suburbans out of Greater Anglia that would also be heavily subsidised, as would both GWR and EMT’s non-Intercity networks.

 

[Eccles1983]

This subsidy is a bit of a red herring.

A few basics, Northern operates over a huge area, it's reach in distance and stations is far bigger than people actually realise.

A massive part of its money making routes have been cherry picked. Especially from the first northwestern days.
It got left with absolute dross branch lines that no company could make money from. Northern could make money, but many of the branch lines would be closed and it would revolve around liv-man-leeds. Everything else would need to take massive cuts in service.

So beating it with the subsidy stick is not really fair.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Transpennine and Greater Anglia aren't as heavily subsidised as Northern is. TfW is, thats true - but you mentioned yourself the difference; it was the Welsh Assemblys doing.

TfW was also let as a 15-year franchise, while Northern was only for 8 years or so.
You can take a longer view with a longer operation, and some of the new TfW trains will be quite a long time coming (2022), and also linked to valleys electrification.
Northern will get another go at revising its fleet by 2025.
There's also TPE's excess 185s to find homes for, as well as the 175s (which weren't free at the time of the Northern bid).

 

[LOL The Irony]

There's quite a few stations that can't even cope with 4-car 156s.

Down Greenbank comes to mind. Although some of the drivers could go a meter forward.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Northern should take the 185's & 175's and as many 170's as possible and use them on connect services. The 195's are much better suited to commuter services.

 

[pieguyrob]

I'd hate to go off topic, but, if anyone is interested 195109 has been stabled at Blackpool North Carriage sidings most of the last week or so over night with another one, which i can't identify.

 

[ainsworth74]

We seemed to have wandered very off-topic of late. As a reminder this thread is about hte introduction of Class 195s to Northern. No matter quite how interesting it might be this thread is no about subsidy profiles of various franchises, it isn't about the future usage of 175s or 185s and neither is about what rolling stock should be used on Northern Connect services. All of those topics warrant their own threads and any further posts that are not about 195s are liable for deletion.

Thanks,
ainsworth74

 

[pieguyrob]

I origanally posted it on my own thread on the 3rd of January. However, I've got a regular passenger who lives opposite the carriage sidings and every time i have dropped herr off, that unit and the other one have been stabled next to the running line sibce then, as far as I'm aware. Oh its 195109. Does anyone know what the other 195 is?

 

[Llama]

I origanally posted it on my own thread on the 3rd of January. However, I've got a regular passenger who lives opposite the carriage sidings and every time i have dropped herr off, that unit and the other one have been stabled next to the running line sibce then, as far as I'm aware. Oh its 195109. Does anyone know what the other 195 is?

195107.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Will the 195s be used on the Cumbrian coast?

 

[pieguyrob]

Thank you @Llama. Its a shame i've already seen it! If i end up there tonight I'll have a butchers to see if it is there. It depends on whether i get the casino staff member, whose house backs onto the sidings. Again ta.

 

[pieguyrob]

@Bornin1980s, i have been told they are to be used to Windermere, but not sure about the coast. I know a manager at Blackpool North, next time i see him i will ask.

 

[sprinterguy]

Will the 195s be used on the Cumbrian coast?

Not north of Barrow: Not sure if they'll operate between Lancaster and Barrow, though.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Will the 195s be used on the Cumbrian coast?

According to Richard Clinnick, the first routes for the 195s and 331s will be Barrow/Blackpool North/Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Airport.
https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1085437470647439361

The first routes for @northernassist @CAFRailUK fleets will be Barrow/Blackpool North/Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to Richard Clinnick, the first routes for the 195s and 331s will be Barrow/Blackpool North/Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Airport.
https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1085437470647439361

And in the first of those replies, someone who doesn't realise that rolling stock comes in multiple vehicle lengths!

 

[superkev]

Has ASLEF agreed to drive them yet?
K

 

[sprinterguy]

According to Richard Clinnick, the first routes for the 195s and 331s will be Barrow/Blackpool North/Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Airport.
https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1085437470647439361

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Focusing on the old 'North West Express' services then!

 

[Llama]

There is also an issue that the hired in 185s must be returned in March. That's capacity that can't afford to be lost without the CAF units being in service.

 

[Mathew S]

There is also an issue that the hired in 185s must be returned in March. That's capacity that can't afford to be lost without the CAF units being in service.

May, not March, surely?

 

[Llama]

No, end of March as it stands.

 

[ainsworth74]

Does anyone know where are we at with ASLEF and Northern agreeing a training program?

 

[Red Devil]

Up before the EC on Tuesday gone. Decision expected today. If favourable first training course for DI's to start 23rd

 

[Red Devil]

Meeting of EC on Tuesday gone decision expected today. If favourable first training course for DI's to start on Wednesday the 23rd

 

[themiller]

From Rail Technology Magazine online today:
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...of-trains-on-cumbrian-rail-routes-this-summer
This refers to introduction of new trains on both Barrow in Furness and Windermere lines first.