Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[hexagon789]

So anyone know the 0 to 60 time then. I hear the 3 car 331s are one of the quickest emus at 30sec so it would be interesting to compare as well as a 750hp 185.
K

0-60 for the 195s looks like about 95 seconds.

The 331 looks to be 30 seconds to 100km/h (62mph).

 

[superalbs]

Now that these trains are actually about to go into service it's time to have a separate thread for diagramming. This is so that people can easily find information (and request it) regarding what services 195s are currently on without it being lost amongst a raft of posts relating to people's opinions of the new trains and the continuing discussion regarding their introduction. The new thread can be found here.

Hopefully that makes sense! We've done it a few times now and it's worked well in the past in helping to keep things relatively organised!

Appreciated, was losing track of what everyone was saying haha.

 

[323 Class]

What is the load factor to achieve those times respectively? Empty/ half full/full

 

[hexagon789]

What is the load factor to achieve those times respectively? Empty/ half full/full

For the 195 heavily overloaded apparently, no idea about the 331.

 

[86247]

well it looks like I will have eat my words saying that their be no 195s in service by July looking forward to having a few for haulage a Lancashire day ranger is calling me I do believe just need a few 331s in service on the west side

 

[snail]

A spokesman for Northern on BBC NW news at lunchtime confirms that 9 NEW 195s will be in service from Monday July 1st ; does not say which routes.
Repoter alongside a new 195 says more in local news tonight in NW at 1830.

https://media.northernrailway.co.uk/news/new-trains-for-the-north-to-carry-customers-from-1-july

The first nine trains in a £500m new fleet for local rail services will start carrying customers from Monday 1 July, train operator Arriva Rail North announced today.
Nine trains will begin operating on routes between Cumbria and Manchester Airport, Liverpool and Manchester Airport, and between Doncaster and Leeds.
The rest of the 101-strong fleet of new trains will be rolled out in the coming months in the biggest upgrade for local rail services in a generation.

 

[hooverboy]

0-60 in 30 seems achievable with quite a few modern EMUs as long as they aren't a cut-down variety. The 345s can certainly do it as I've witnessed it and it feels like 700s (on AC) would be able to as well. I gather 710s are just as potent.

you would expect EMU's to be 1 to 1.2m/s/s
they basically have twice the amount of power at rail...and less to cart around.

with DMU's the problem is mostly energy storage/transmission.....most of it is dissipated as heat of some form or another
just look at the acceleration figures for a tesla hybrid versus a standard car,and that shows you the same is basically feasible with rail.

would agree about 700's/OK the interior is horrid,but they are pretty snappy.

 

[samuelmorris]

you would expect EMU's to be 1 to 1.2m/s/s
they basically have twice the amount of power at rail...and less to cart around.

with DMU's the problem is mostly energy storage/transmission.....most of it is dissipated as heat of some form or another
just look at the acceleration figures for a tesla hybrid versus a standard car,and that shows you the same is basically feasible with rail.

would agree about 700's/OK the interior is horrid,but they are pretty snappy.

The problem is, 1ms^-2 is only applicable up to a certain speed. Isn't that usually only 40mph?

 

[LeylandLen]

Can someone clarify the classes for me please. As I see it 195s are diesels and 331 are electrics of similar design .
319s, of which ive been on many times are elecrtics. I assume 769s are bi-modal ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps I being naive, but I keep expecting new units to outperform what they are replacing. Though it does seem I shouldn't read much into their 100mph top speed, as you say it's 0-60 that's important really.

How does the weight compare with a 172? They are pretty quick off the mark and have similar transmission.

 

[jonnyfan]

Can someone clarify the classes for me please. As I see it 195s are diesels and 331 are electrics of similar design .
319s, of which ive been on many times are elecrtics. I assume 769s are bi-modal ?

Exactly right

 

[Agent_Squash]

It remains to be seen whether they are an upgrade on current stock. Manchester - Barrow / Windermere services are currently 158s. I'm not at all convinced stock with doors at 1/3 and 2/3 are an upgrade.

Barrow and Windermere lines had 185s with 1/3 and 2/3 - the 158s are if anything a downgrade on that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Barrow and Windermere lines had 185s with 1/3 and 2/3 - the 158s are if anything a downgrade on that.

Though the substantially increased proportion of Standard class is a big upgrade. 185s are nice but waste loads of space, particularly on a route like that which has very low 1st demand.

I see the case for proper 1st on the "real" TPE routes with multi-hour journeys, but NorthWest Express never really had much of a case for it and it was mostly nearly empty even with Weekend First only being a fiver back then.

 

[hexagon789]

How does the weight compare with a 172? They are pretty quick off the mark and have similar transmission.

No idea, Eversholt don't say. The page does give maximum acceleration as 0.83 ms-2 though.

 

[supervc-10]

Am I right in thinking that the older DMUs had transmissions more akin to an old-school automatic in a car (think 4-speed slushbox from the '90s) while the gearboxes in the 195 (and 172) are more like a more modern dual-clutch (DSG) gearbox, with the associated improvements in fuel economy and performance?

 

[samuelmorris]

Am I right in thinking that the older DMUs had transmissions more akin to an old-school automatic in a car (think 4-speed slushbox from the '90s) while the gearboxes in the 195 (and 172) are more like a more modern dual-clutch (DSG) gearbox, with the associated improvements in fuel economy and performance?

Sprinters, 170s etc had hydraulic transmission, so not really. 1st generation DMUs from the 60s had manual transmission did they not?

 

[hexagon789]

Am I right in thinking that the older DMUs had transmissions more akin to an old-school automatic in a car (think 4-speed slushbox from the '90s) while the gearboxes in the 195 (and 172) are more like a more modern dual-clutch (DSG) gearbox, with the associated improvements in fuel economy and performance?

Most First Generation DMUs had a 4-speed pre-selector epicyclic gearbox.

 

[hexagon789]

Sprinters, 170s etc had hydraulic transmission, so not really. 1st generation DMUs from the 60s had manual transmission did they not?

Yes, Sprinters and 170s have a Voith hydraulic transmission. The 1950s/60s BR DMUs have more bus-like transmission.

 

[hexagon789]

Am I right in thinking that the older DMUs had transmissions more akin to an old-school automatic in a car (think 4-speed slushbox from the '90s) while the gearboxes in the 195 (and 172) are more like a more modern dual-clutch (DSG) gearbox, with the associated improvements in fuel economy and performance?

There's a good few pages here on the railcar website explaining the first gen DMU transmission in some detail: https://railcar.co.uk/technology/gearboxes/

 

[Harvey B]

well it looks like I will have eat my words saying that their be no 195s in service by July

Well it's Northern Rail so it's actually a surprise when they acctually do things earlier than people expect

Mind you I wouldn't be surprised if Northern turned around and said that there was yet another delay to these units entering service.

I also wonder how long it will be before Northern pulls this joke on people (again)

 

[supervc-10]

Think I should have explained myself a bit better- older DMUs being 15Xs, not 1st gen DMUs, and the comparison with an older automatic car transmission being that they use a torque converter/fluid coupling.

A classic torque converter automatic gearbox loses a lot of energy into that torque converter, and only recently (last 10 years or so) have they approached the efficiency levels of a manual or DSG. A DSG is really a pair of manual gearboxes, but the similarities I was getting at is that they use clutch packs instead of a fluid coupling/torque converter.

A while back I inherited a 1997 Peugeot 306 automatic. It had a 1.8 litre engine with a 4-speed automatic transmission, and at low speeds the acceleration was slow. It was a stop-gap until I got a 1.2 turbo Skoda Fabia, with a manual, which was significantly faster off the mark than the Peugeot, especially below about 40-50 mph, despite being 40 hp down on the Peugeot (admittedly those are factory numbers, and the Skoda was a 2016!), as the car was putting all the engine's power into the wheels, not into throwing hydraulic fluid around.

My thinking was that the 195s might have a similar performance advantage with a more direct transmission.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My thinking was that the 195s might have a similar performance advantage with a more direct transmission.

Probably yes. This is why it's my view that new stock should have gone on city local services (like the 172s) and tarted-up 158s and 170s on Northern Connect where slow acceleration is not much of an issue.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Probably yes. This is why it's my view that new stock should have gone on city local services (like the 172s) and tarted-up 150s and 170s on Northern Connect where slow acceleration is not much of an issue.

Remember when the franchise was awarded, Barrow was a Labour marginal. Now wonder why the unsuited (in comparison to refurbished 170s) but new trains are on the Connect services...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did of course mean 158s on Northern Connect, not 150s...fixed

 

[Harvey B]

Is there a possiblity of ever seeing 195s on the settle Carlisle line (not talking about the near future but the more distant future (May 2020 or December 2020)

 

[krus_aragon]

Is there a possiblity of ever seeing 195s on the settle Carlisle line (not talking about the near future but the more distant future (May 2020 or December 2020)

It's certainly possible, if you're willing to stretch your "distant future" a little further.

The 195s are 15 years younger than the 185s, 15-20 years younger than the 170s, and younger still than all the Sprinters, so they will probably remain in service after they're all gone. (The 150s at least will probably be replaced in the next franchise.)

The question then will be "what else would suit the line"? Assuming that electrification doesn't reach this line, it'll be a choice between the 195s and any future diesel/bi-mode unit that hasn't been built yet.

But to see them on the Settle-Carlisle in a year's time? I don't think that's in the current franchise's plan at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that's why they ordered 2-car sets, isn't it? Electrification needs to continue on a rolling basis, and over time this will displace other stock to the point that all 15x and eventually 17x/18x can be scrapped, and you've got the then 20-30 year old 195s on the branch lines and secondary mainlines like the S&C that just aren't viable to electrify, burning chip fat or whatever it is by then.

 

[Billy A]

Am I right in thinking that the older DMUs had transmissions more akin to an old-school automatic in a car (think 4-speed slushbox from the '90s) while the gearboxes in the 195 (and 172) are more like a more modern dual-clutch (DSG) gearbox, with the associated improvements in fuel economy and performance?

Not really.
The older DMUs used a semi automatic gearbox with a torque converter so the driver had to change gear.

The later ones use a Voith hydrodynamic transmission which uses a torque converter (lots of fluid pumped around, high losses) for first speed and a fluid coupling (less fluid being pumped around so less losses) for second speed. Three speed versions use a second fluid coupling.

The latest DMUs use the same automatic gearboxes that you find in buses, so a six speed with a torque converter which is mechanically locked at some speeds. Sounds more efficient but in practice they don't coast like the Voith models will and so the driver has to apply more power which rather takes away from the improved efficiency.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Think I should have explained myself a bit better- older DMUs being 15Xs, not 1st gen DMUs, and the comparison with an older automatic car transmission being that they use a torque converter/fluid coupling.

A classic torque converter automatic gearbox loses a lot of energy into that torque converter, and only recently (last 10 years or so) have they approached the efficiency levels of a manual or DSG. A DSG is really a pair of manual gearboxes, but the similarities I was getting at is that they use clutch packs instead of a fluid coupling/torque converter.

A while back I inherited a 1997 Peugeot 306 automatic. It had a 1.8 litre engine with a 4-speed automatic transmission, and at low speeds the acceleration was slow. It was a stop-gap until I got a 1.2 turbo Skoda Fabia, with a manual, which was significantly faster off the mark than the Peugeot, especially below about 40-50 mph, despite being 40 hp down on the Peugeot (admittedly those are factory numbers, and the Skoda was a 2016!), as the car was putting all the engine's power into the wheels, not into throwing hydraulic fluid around.

My thinking was that the 195s might have a similar performance advantage with a more direct transmission.

My understanding is, any car would have better low-end acceleration than any train due to better grip.

As for the 195s, the important thing is, do they have better low speed performance than a pacer or a sprinter?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must admit to being surprised that 172/19x don't have a freewheel for coasting purposes, heritage DMUs do.

(Removed bit about torque converters as I believe it was wrong - they need them for starting out)