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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

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Nymanic

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6x23m minimum is a very good starting point for a standard platform length across the Northern network. Unfortunately many key routes fall short of this, with no immediate resolution in sight. SDO wouldn't help with dwell times on congested routes.

Pairs of 195/1s would be extremely effective on peak runs, with enough space to accommodate ridership growth, and/or unforeseen loads (e.g. due to disruption/earlier cancellations). Naturally, we'll be seeing very few such diagrams.
 

ic31420

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A nice improvement on the sprinters in my opinion, but they really should have made them 3 and 4 coaches long instead of 2 and 3.

Agreed.. in an ideal world.

4 car could maybe have got away with a trailer would equal 400hp per car.

Money I suppose is the issue. The 195s are supposed to be a pacer killer via a cascade no matter how it's dressed up. I think therell be a lot of whinging when northern announce the pacers have gone and people find themselves travelling on sprinters the next day.
 

northernchris

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I heard a few complaints about the harsh lighting and fewer seats - the diagram was previously a 2 coach 158 + a 1 coach 153 which is similar length but higher seating density I think.

A 195/1 has around 10 fewer seats than a 158+153 combo however I think the layout of the 195 creates the impression there's fewer seats than they are, however fingers crossed there's less chance of a 2 car unit turning up now!
 

darloscott

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0746 Barrow-Manchester Airport was a 156 instead of of 195. Guard apologised profusely - they seem very proud of the 195s!
They definitely should be, and I'm glad they've finally got something they can be proud of! Hopefully helps boost morale having better units to work on
 

Boysteve

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Tonight 1F94 (1950 Airport - Lime Street) was a 2x3-car 195, it remained peak-hour strengthened. Had this diagram been like this all day?
(Westbound departures are 07:48 from Wilmslow, followed by departures from Man Airport at approx 10:50/13:50/16:48/19:50)
 
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At least, Sprinters do have bogies*.

And many other bodily secretions too - some of the seats on the unrefurbished units are an absolute indictment of the poor standards of cleaning by Northern!

*Yes I do actually know what it's referring to, before anyone feels the need to correct/clarify for me! :)
 

chrissawer

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A 195/1 has around 10 fewer seats than a 158+153 combo however I think the layout of the 195 creates the impression there's fewer seats than they are, however fingers crossed there's less chance of a 2 car unit turning up now!

Interesting, thanks for the figures. I was in the coach with the wheelchair space and toilet which had plenty of standing room but not loads of seats. When I get the chance I'll try to walk right down a three coach train to get a better idea of the layout.

Personally I liked it. My main disappointment was that wheelchair/bike areas were not clearly marked on the outside of the carriages - I commute with a Brompton folding bike. Other Northern trains have marked the doors very clearly for quite a few years now.
 

Killingworth

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Personally I liked it. My main disappointment was that wheelchair/bike areas were not clearly marked on the outside of the carriages - I commute with a Brompton folding bike. Other Northern trains have marked the doors very clearly for quite a few years now.

Apparently the vinyls to add the markers were on order a fortnight ago. Why they haven't been applied yet, after so many weeks/months in service, was taxing several who were invited to Victoria to mark 1m passengers carried in the new trains. Seems quite a simple thing to add even if they were overlooked at the start. There was a tiny grey symbol low down on one door of one coach of the unit I saw. Clear it was not.
 

156420

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Tonight 1F94 (1950 Airport - Lime Street) was a 2x3-car 195, it remained peak-hour strengthened. Had this diagram been like this all day?
(Westbound departures are 07:48 from Wilmslow, followed by departures from Man Airport at approx 10:50/13:50/16:48/19:50)

Yes they stay coupled now all evening from 15:16 onwards.

But still split after 07:48 ex-Wilmslow.
 

Chris125

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The more I think about it, the more I think they should probably have standardised around 3-car sets with peak doubling up where appropriate.

I'd argue the flexibility to run 2, 4 and 5-car formations makes sense now, and perhaps even more so if/when they are cascaded in the future.

I have always thought, in a similar train of thought, that the Class 185 units should have all been four-car units.

It would surely have been a mistake for the same reason - flexibility. 2x3-car 185s make much more sense than 1x4-car with little possibility to double-up given the length.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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It would surely have been a mistake for the same reason - flexibility. 2x3-car 185s make much more sense than 1x4-car with little possibility to double-up given the length.

Just think of the total number of TPE services in past times since that class was introduced where a single Class 185 3-car unit has been the overcrowded service provision when a 4-car unit would surely have been preferable, with TPE still only needing to provide a single unit. There have been countless times when returning either from Durham or York to Manchester when my heart reached out to the countless hordes waiting to board the provided 3-car Class 185 unit on platform 16 at Leeds about 1700 hours.

Over the years when TPE have used Class 185 units on the North Transpennine route, I can honestly say that I cannot recall ever boarding a 2 x 3 car Class 185 unit that TPE had provided for the journey and I must have made journeys into the hundreds since service inception.
 

js1000

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I'd argue the flexibility to run 2, 4 and 5-car formations makes sense now, and perhaps even more so if/when they are cascaded in the future. It would surely have been a mistake for the same reason - flexibility. 2x3-car 185s make much more sense than 1x4-car with little possibility to double-up given the length.
I use the MIA-LIV service most days, not only into Manchester but further on to Warrington on ocassion. I'd say 5 coaches peak-time is more than sufficient as opposed to 6. The biggest problem with the 6 coach is actually managing passenger distribution between both sets as there are no gangways. The rear train is busy from Wilmslow/Airport to Manchester while the front is very quiet. At Piccadilly, it's the complete opposite as the rear train doesn't get beyond the stairs and no one ever turns back on themselves at the bottom of the stairs on platform 14. It evens up a bit at Oxford Road but strenghening is self-defeating if the front train is standing room only while the rear train has hoardes of empty seats.
 

chrissawer

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Day 2 on the Calder Valley hasn't started well. 0539 Leeds - Chester Delayed by 35 minutes at Bradford Interchange (a problem changing ends again?), and was a 2 coach 195 so standing room only by Hebden Bridge. I left it to go and waited for the next service.

0621 Leeds to Manchester cancelled due to a problem with the traction equipment.

They are lovely trains and appreciate they are new for the driver and guard, but the reliability needs to be sorted out ASAP.
 

SteveM70

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Day 2 on the Calder Valley hasn't started well. 0539 Leeds - Chester Delayed by 35 minutes at Bradford Interchange (a problem changing ends again?), and was a 2 coach 195 so standing room only by Hebden Bridge. I left it to go and waited for the next service.

0621 Leeds to Manchester cancelled due to a problem with the traction equipment.

They are lovely trains and appreciate they are new for the driver and guard, but the reliability needs to be sorted out ASAP.

And it’s only a two carriage train as well, so significantly less capacity than what it replaced. Noticeable wheelslip leaving HBD too
 

Mogster

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Agreed.. in an ideal world.

4 car could maybe have got away with a trailer would equal 400hp per car.

Money I suppose is the issue. The 195s are supposed to be a pacer killer via a cascade no matter how it's dressed up. I think therell be a lot of whinging when northern announce the pacers have gone and people find themselves travelling on sprinters the next day.

From personal experience I’m not sure a lot of passengers notice the difference between a 195 and a re-furb’d 15x. Family members and friends have frequently announced they’ve travelled on one of the “new trains” when a bit of question and answer leads to it actually being a re-furb’d 150 or 156. There also seems to be a general perception that all new trains will be electric. Living in Wigan the same goes for Pendo’s and Voyagers, everything on the main line With a pointed front is a Pendo, even if it’s diesel.

Everyone knows what a Pacer is though...
 

50007

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Apologies if this needs a new thread, but if you've tried both, what do people think of the ride quality on the 195s compared to the TPE Mark 5s? Having done one of each going west of Leeds it seemed the 195 was a lot smoother than the slightly rough mk5 - though maybe the platform 16 end of Leeds is a bit rougher anyway - but I was expecting the Mk5 to be better (despite some of the comments on here).
 

northernchris

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Apologies if this needs a new thread, but if you've tried both, what do people think of the ride quality on the 195s compared to the TPE Mark 5s? Having done one of each going west of Leeds it seemed the 195 was a lot smoother than the slightly rough mk5 - though maybe the platform 16 end of Leeds is a bit rougher anyway - but I was expecting the Mk5 to be better (despite some of the comments on here).

I haven't noticed either being particularly poor, however on the Mk5 you do hear a lot more from the bogies as there's no engine noise to mask it unlike the 195s
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I think they are very similar, and in each case the ride is rubbish.
They both have a high frequency "jiggle", accompanied by a continuous rattly/clunky noise from underneath, sometimes a real "bang".
331s are similar. If 397s do the same we will have a complete set.
Yesterday I thought the Mk5 ride was somewhat better over the (straight) Chat Moss route than over the (curved) Standedge route, but still poor.
Mk4s used to have a rough ride when they were new - I believe they have improved with age, but I'm not a regular Mk4 traveller.
Otherwise I can't think of a poorer ride than on these CAF trains.
Other trains (Pacers, even 185s) can roll around a lot, but they do it at a lower frequency and without the noise.
 

mrcaa

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12 Mar 2019
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Day 2 on the Calder Valley hasn't started well. 0539 Leeds - Chester Delayed by 35 minutes at Bradford Interchange (a problem changing ends again?), and was a 2 coach 195 so standing room only by Hebden Bridge. I left it to go and waited for the next service.

0621 Leeds to Manchester cancelled due to a problem with the traction equipment.

They are lovely trains and appreciate they are new for the driver and guard, but the reliability needs to be sorted out ASAP.
It says on RTT "This service was cancelled between Warrington Bank Quay and Chester due to a problem with the doors (M7)."

Not sure if the door issue happened at Bradford or if they've just put that when there was another issue and it was just turned round at Warrington to make up the lost time. If it is the doors then it's obviously something they have no idea how to solve as it's been going on for over 3 months now.
 

61653 HTAFC

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From personal experience I’m not sure a lot of passengers notice the difference between a 195 and a re-furb’d 15x. Family members and friends have frequently announced they’ve travelled on one of the “new trains” when a bit of question and answer leads to it actually being a re-furb’d 150 or 156. There also seems to be a general perception that all new trains will be electric. Living in Wigan the same goes for Pendo’s and Voyagers, everything on the main line With a pointed front is a Pendo, even if it’s diesel.

Everyone knows what a Pacer is though...
Careful, I dared to suggest a few weeks ago that the general population wouldn't necessarily know the difference between a 185 and a 350... I practically got chewed up and spat out like a Poundland dog-treat! :lol::rolleyes:
 

nigelsporne

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I am in the Manchester area next week and hope to do a bit of photography so which is best to see 195s Piccadilly or Victoria?
 
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