Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[Llama]

When I first signed 700s I would do everything as per the manual. Literally checklist style. There are plenty of Drivers I know who still use some kind of checklist for various tasks.

I would agree that new units are getting very complicated.

What are they like to drive ?

To drive, 195s are ok, I don't like the gearboxes, but the 331s are much better.

 

[Llama]

Isnt it amazing with trains getting ever more complicated they dont have aircraft style procedure/checklists.
I understand some drivers make there own and swap them with colleges. Not the best way to do it as each may differ.
K

That's exactly it. We are even at the stage now where we are seeing 'official' unofficial lists and crib sheets.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Why have Northern even bothered with any 2-car 195's. I can see that a 3-car unit would be more expensive, but it's only a coach, not a powered unit.

Surely the benefits of scale apply here and buying 58x 3-car units instead of 25x 2-cars and 33x 3-cars wouldn't be a show stopper, (i.e. 25x un-powered coaches)?

Apart from the initial cost, how much more expensive is a 3-car unit to run than a 3-car?

Northern Rail must really be skint?

 

[Llama]

I worked out from the printed timetable that nine units are required to work the Leeds - Man Vic/Chester services. Today I've seen five 195s (001, 104/07/10/17), two 158s (755 and 872) and 150104, coming through Littleborough. So there's one I've not seen. No idea if these units have been on the line all day - I assume the 150 was a substitution (it worked the 14.18 from Leeds).

There was a lot of swapping about earlier today, several sets going to Newton Heath so there might be some units which make an appearance on diagrams they didn't start off doing.

 

[Bovverboy]

Why have Northern even bothered with any 2-car 195's. I can see that a 3-car unit would be more expensive, but it's only a coach, not a powered unit.

Surely the benefits of scale apply here and buying 58x 3-car units instead of 25x 2-cars and 33x 3-cars wouldn't be a show stopper, (i.e. 25x un-powered coaches)?

Apart from the initial cost, how much more expensive is a 3-car unit to run than a 3-car?

Northern Rail must really be skint?

I can assure you that a 3-car 195 comprises three powered coaches.

 

[thejuggler]

Just had my first trip. It reminded me of trying to drive a Ferrari at 30mph. It will do it, but its not made to do it. It certainly didn't feel like a smooth accelerating unit, almost like it was hunting for the best compromise between engine speed and gear selection.

Why are the announcements and door beeps so loud? Having a conversation is impossible.

Vibration of the engine through the uncomfy seat was unacceptable. Must remember to sit at the end of the carriage next time.

 

[geoffk]

Thanks for the information.

 

[Llama]

Just had my first trip. It reminded me of trying to drive a Ferrari at 30mph. It will do it, but its not made to do it. It certainly didn't feel like a smooth accelerating unit, almost like it was hunting for the best compromise between engine speed and gear selection.

Why are the announcements and door beeps so loud? Having a conversation is impossible.

Vibration of the engine through the uncomfy seat was unacceptable. Must remember to sit at the end of the carriage next time.

You'll have to trade engine noise for ride quality sat at the ends. And yes, all 195 vehicles are powered vehicles. There is no TPE-alike eco setting that knocks an engine out so if one engine isn't running it's knackered. There is an 'eco' setting for driving purposes (four modes - eco/normal/power/super power - guess which is used 95% of the time) but all it does is change the speeds the ZF transmission steps up under acceleration so I understand.
In comparison tests the 195s I've driven (super power mode) are about the same as a 319 in the 319's 'useful' power/speed band between 30-70mph, so they're faster than 319s from 0-30 and above 70. The 195s I've driven are faster than the fastest 158s we have too, although they don't feel it from the cab because of the size of the huge windscreen and being sat further back from it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why have Northern even bothered with any 2-car 195's

The argument is that in 30 years time they will be suitable for seeing out their lives on a quiet branch line.

 

[Greybeard33]

I think I'd probably suggest that the successful approach of using this in aviation - every time - may well be the way to go. Tick your way through a list with a biro and sign the bottom to say you've done it.

On a state of the art airliner electronic flight deck the checklists are on a screen, not paper. And the computer system will verify that the pilot has completed the actions successfully and will flag up any anomalies.

If automation is making a train driver's job more difficult not easier, the rail industry needs to catch up, fast.

 

[Harvey B]

Im wondering if anyone has actually found out what went on yesterday with the 195 at Bramley (sorry if it's been answered already in this thread)

 

[Grumpy Git]

I can assure you that a 3-car 195 comprises three powered coaches.

Thanks, I didn't realise all three coaches were motorised.

I had a ride in a 3 car one from LPY to MIA back in June. Seemed nice and quiet to me (compared to the 156's). When I asked one of the many Northern staff on the train why the information screens weren't working, (there were at least six of them in the vestibule), she just roller her eyes and said it was the least of their problems! It did arrive on time though.

 

[Llama]

Im wondering if anyone has actually found out what went on yesterday with the 195 at Bramley (sorry if it's been answered already in this thread)

Yes, the main issue was basically the static brake test overdue issue, compounded by a couple of other things.

 

[Llama]

On a state of the art airliner electronic flight deck the checklists are on a screen, not paper. And the computer system will verify that the pilot has completed the actions successfully and will flag up any anomalies.

If automation is making a train driver's job more difficult not easier, the rail industry needs to catch up, fast.

I'd argue that aviation is inherently complex but is made simpler by well-evolved procedure, whereas some aspects of the railway, for instance the obsession with the 'digital railway' and supposedly 'smart' systems such as Asdo, are just making simple concepts more complicated and unreliable than they ever need to be.

As someone has quoted on this forum recently - any fool can make things more complicated, it takes a genius to make them simple.

 

[Bovverboy]

I can assure you that a 3-car 195 comprises three powered coaches.

From the advent of second-generation DMUs (i.e. Pacers/Sprinters onwards) it has been the norm for all cars of a DMU set to be powered. Off the top of my head I can't think of any which haven't been, although I'm sure someone will correct me.
First-generation DMU sets normally included trailer vehicles, but there were exceptions. A two-car DMU would be Driving Motor + Driving Trailer, and a three-car Driving Motor + Trailer + Driving Motor, but notable exceptions were a small number of two-car sets which were Driving Motor + Driving Motor. Four-car (and greater) sets comprised a mixture of motor and trailer vehicles, but they were very much in the minority.
EMUs almost invariably include non-powered cars.

 

[Llama]

Can't think of any bar the 210s which don't really count. Power-trailer conventional DMUs were often referred to as sputniks by the older hand drivers around these parts. 'Power twins' were quite common around here too due to the Pennine & Peak gradients.

 

[craigybagel]

I believe the now abandoned plan to fit extra cars to Voyagers involved trailer cars. Instead of motors and an engine in the extra car they would have had a pantograph and transformer fitted, so the units could be bi-modes. Voyagers were designed to be able to keep to time with an engine out, and I'm sure at one point Cross Country used to routinely run their 5 car sets on only 4 engines.

This is getting way off topic though. I'm quite happy the 195s are powered on all cars - all being well, I'll be driving CAF Civitys on some steeply graded lines in a few years time and I'm hoping they'll have the performance to cope. The one time I traveled on one so far the performance seemed very good at low speed, but reaching 100mph seemed to take forever.

 

[Philip]

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[Philip]

Does the 195 have a hydrodynamic retarder brake?

 

[SteveM70]

So today’s my second experience of one of these going into Manchester on the Calder Valley line.

Last time I was chatting to a friend so wasn’t really paying attention, so this morning allows a more considered view...

- legroom is better in the airline style seats than the 150/153/155s, about the same as a 158
- the lighting is very very bright
- the outer edge of every row of seats has a grab handle, the lack of which was a weakness in the unrefurbed 15x
- the ride is very lively indeed, and there’s a lot more underfloor (non engine) noise
- the clever screens and announcements are either broken already or turned off
- not sure if it’s by accident or design but the braking is extremely sharp
- acceleration is loads better than the old stuff, waiting time at every station so far (a first in 5+ years commuting into Manchester)


All in all they seem pretty good - let’s hope Northern look after them

 

[Mordac]

So today’s my second experience of one of these going into Manchester on the Calder Valley line.

Last time I was chatting to a friend so wasn’t really paying attention, so this morning allows a more considered view...

- legroom is better in the airline style seats than the 150/153/155s, about the same as a 158
- the lighting is very very bright
- the outer edge of every row of seats has a grab handle, the lack of which was a weakness in the unrefurbed 15x
- the ride is very lively indeed, and there’s a lot more underfloor (non engine) noise
- the clever screens and announcements are either broken already or turned off
- not sure if it’s by accident or design but the braking is extremely sharp
- acceleration is loads better than the old stuff, waiting time at every station so far (a first in 5+ years commuting into Manchester)


All in all they seem pretty good - let’s hope Northern look after them

I'm sure they've put Newton-on-the-Heath's finest on the job.

 

[433N]

Went on my first one yesterday. Pretty nice - very quiet (especially compared to the 150 on the return)

The Pacer that went before it was having problems with door opening. Our 195 was having problems with ... errr ... door opening.

La plus ca change.

 

[59CosG95]

I'm sure they've put Newton-on-the-Heath's finest on the job.

NH need to get the quality team from Salisbury.

 

[nigelsporne]

Thanks for the info on photo opportunities. There appears to ne a lot going on so will try Piccadilly and Victoria.

 

[superkev]

Does the 195 have a hydrodynamic retarder brake?

I think the 195 gearbox is the same ZF ecomat unit as fitted to the 172's although ZF make a newer model the ecolife.
The ecomat rail version is the same as fitted to many buses with the addition of a reversing mechanism.
It has a torque convertor driving I think 6 mechanical gears and incorporates a retarder.
The retarder operates to slow the train to less than 30 mph when the disc brakes are blended in, often with a noticable jerk. Probably needs some adjustment.
K

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does anyone have any information on the percentages of both Class 195 and Class 156 units that have run the Manchester Airport to Barrow-in-Furness services since the Class 195 units were made available as traction on that particular route?

 

[Cuboid]

Ended up catching a 2-car 195 this morning from New Pudsey to Leeds (delayed 07:10). Apart from the ridiculously stupid notion that 2-cars are acceptable in the 21st Century, it seemed a nice enough train from what I could see while I was sardined into it. Ended up leaving people behind at Bramley cos it was too full.

The gearbox noise is a new one to me compared to all the other Calder Valley & TPE units that am used to. Also nice to have a train with air-conditioning (but for me they're always too warm).

However, one thing I wish that that was included was a grab bar in the ceiling in the door vestibule areas (similar to the wheelchair area on a Class 185). Been smack in the middle of the vestibule this morning and I had nothing to grab onto to stop myself moving during breaking or points moves. Thankfully am tall enough I ended up planting my palm onto the plastic shroud covering the door opening mechanics.

 

[Tim_UK]

In my limited experience checklists and a "checklist-culture" - that is actually paying attention to the checks - are embedded in aviation whether you're flying an ancient single-seat glider with four instruments or an A350. They have been for decades, even for extremely simple aircraft, so the difference between rail and aviation can't just be down to complexity of the equipment.

And really coming into hospitals and NHS now, and saving lives.

It isn't as simple as just making the lists. They have to be test, refined, research. There are checklist where you do each action in turn. And ones you read at the end to check you've not forgotten anything.

This book is an amazing read if you are interested in the subject. The Checklist Manifesto, by Atul Gawande

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Checklist-Manifesto-Things-Right-Gawande/dp/1846683149

 

[superkev]

My favourite magazine Modern Railways this month has some new train reliability stats.
Miles per technical incidents MTIN for Northern are
195/1 91345 miles run MTIN 4152
331/1 19780 miles run MTIN 2198.
For interest top is the SWT Siemens class707 with MTIN of 106378 and 2nd Hitachi 385 with 28224.
Bit to go yet then.
K

 

[Grumpy Git]

My favourite magazine Modern Railways this month has some new train reliability stats.
Miles per technical incidents MTIN for Northern are
195/1 91345 miles run MTIN 4152
331/1 19780 Mike's run MTIN 2198.
For interest top is the SWT Siemens class707 with MTIN of 106378 and 2nd Hirachi 385 with 28224.
Bit to go yet then.
K

Those stats should concentrate the minds of whoever signed-off the order for the 195's. It will be interesting to review them when they have been in full operation for 12 months.