Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[J-2739]

Okay, so earlier today, I saw one of these units (195007?) come in at Barnsley Interchange. One thing I've noticed is how fast they fly into the platform, before braking to a complete stop. I've never seen anything like this in the UK outside the London Underground, but Continental Europe perhaps. How/why is this the case?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Sowerby bridge today. Old and new.
K
View attachment 74808

Great shot. I saw the steamer at Preston thanks to having been turfed off the TPE and awaiting the Avanti to Glasgow

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think the proposed sidings platform is only temporary to allow other platform works are done.
K

It's off topic for this thread, but check out the Trans-pennine Route Upgrade thread in the infrastructure section for details on the plans for Huddersfield. Nothing set in stone yet, but the new proposed platforms on the site of the sidings will most likely be permanent.

 

[SteveM70]

Still announcing that a two car 195 is too long for the platform at Halifax. Beyond a joke now

 

[samuelmorris]

Still announcing that a two car 195 is too long for the platform at Halifax. Beyond a joke now

The 331 I travelled on from Doncaster to Leeds announced the rear doors wouldn't open at Leeds of all places, the other platforms were fine. Even the 'door not in use' lights appeared, until the doors were released and then they opened as normal.

 

[Deerfold]

Still announcing that a two car 195 is too long for the platform at Halifax. Beyond a joke now

I was on a crowded service at Hebden Bridge on Friday where this was announced. I was trying to pass a passenger to get off the train who said she hadn't been sure which way to move to get out of people's way as she didn't know which doors would be used. There was, of course, plenty of usable platform at both ends of the train.

 

[Deerfold]

The 331 I travelled on from Doncaster to Leeds announced the rear doors wouldn't open at Leeds of all places, the other platforms were fine. Even the 'door not in use' lights appeared, until the doors were released and then they opened as normal.

This appears to be normal at many stations (along with incorrect station announcements). Some guards are clearly as irritated about it as passengers, but there's no sign of any improvements.

 

[thejuggler]

Last week the 195s were announcing arrival at Bradford Interchange as they were at Mill Lane junction heading for Leeds.

 

[Mogster]

The door problems at Oxford Road seem to be ongoing.

The train stops, the crew release the doors which open, the doors then close repeatedly on the punters as they attempt to board. How many months is this now?

 

[fulmar]

If people are witnessing things that shouldn't be happening with these trains, can you please tell a member of staff about it. Admittedly you might get a disappointingly apathetic response from some staff members, but if you happen to tell me I can guarantee that I will at least make an entry in the defect book and report it to our maintenance controllers.

CAF are working on fixes for a number of issues and the more information we can give them the better. Unfortunately, as a driver I can't see what is going on with the passenger information screens and on many units I can't hear the announcements either, so if you can tell me what has happened and where, that would be very helpful.

Much more importantly, if you see passengers getting squashed by doors, please tell the guard or driver about it. In eight months of working these trains I'm not aware of any such incidents occurring on services I have been driving, but maybe it is just the case that nobody has told me about it.

I'll happily come to the driving cab window to talk to you at the station where you get off if you have something to tell me. Whilst I probably won't be able to fix it there and then I will certainly get it reported.

 

[Mogster]

This has been occurring at Oxford Road since the 195s were introduced. I’m sure the staff are aware of it, certainly the guards that crew these services as they watch it happen and the rapid door close alarm is sounding.

 

[fulmar]

Well, I work as a driver at one of the first depots to have received these units. I've worked them through Oxford Road pretty much every day since their introduction. At no time has anybody, staff or passengers, reported such incidents to me.

Unless people do so, I can't really get them properly reported. It's not much good me just submitting a generic report saying some random person on the internet says this is happening. I need to know details about what has happened and when. So come and tell me when these incidents actually happen and what exactly has happened, and I'll get them reported through the relevant channels.

 

[mrcaa]

Well, I work as a driver at one of the first depots to have received these units. I've worked them through Oxford Road pretty much every day since their introduction. At no time has anybody, staff or passengers, reported such incidents to me.

Unless people do so, I can't really get them properly reported. It's not much good me just submitting a generic report saying some random person on the internet says this is happening. I need to know details about what has happened and when. So come and tell me when these incidents actually happen and what exactly has happened, and I'll get them reported through the relevant channels.

I didn’t even know passengers could talk to drivers at stations. I thought it would have been banned for health and safety or something. I know when I witnessed it at Warrington Bank Quay the guard was aware of it. I also emailed Northern through the contact form but got no response. It doesn’t seem to have happened on the Chester service recently though but then that doesn’t pass through Oxford Road. We’ve just had the stuck PIS issue which the guards are also aware of as they’ve acknowledged it in their announcements. Can the guards log these things or tell the driver to? Do you reckon they’re not bothering? I always thought they were meant to do all passenger interaction rather than the driver.

 

[Mogster]

Well, I work as a driver at one of the first depots to have received these units. I've worked them through Oxford Road pretty much every day since their introduction. At no time has anybody, staff or passengers, reported such incidents to me.

Unless people do so, I can't really get them properly reported. It's not much good me just submitting a generic report saying some random person on the internet says this is happening. I need to know details about what has happened and when. So come and tell me when these incidents actually happen and what exactly has happened, and I'll get them reported through the relevant channels.

There are a lot of posts about the door problems earlier in this thread.

I’m at Oxford Road for around 10 minutes in the evening around 16:10 waiting for the 16:21 Southport service. Initially the 195/331 door problems were happening with pretty much every Blackpool North and Lime Street service. Service arrives, doors released, pax press door release, doors open, pax begin to board at which point the rapid door close alarm sounds and the doors try to close with pax boarding.

Tbh I’ve not seen this happen much lately, I thought it had been resolved. Then a week or so ago I attempted to board a MIA - Blackpool via Wigan 195 service at Oxford Road and the old door craziness ensued...

I’m genuinely amazed crew aren’t aware of these door issues.

 

[Bovverboy]

hen a week or so ago I attempted to board a MIA - Blackpool via Wigan 195 service at Oxford Road and the old door craziness ensued...

I don't know of any MIA - Blackpool via Wigan services, whether 195-operated or not. There's one the other way - 0333SSuX ex-Blackpool, but even that doesn't actually call at Wigan.
Did you mean Barrow?

 

[fulmar]

I’m genuinely amazed crew aren’t aware of these door issues.

I have seen plenty of discussion about the issue on this forum.

I haven't however actually witnessed it happening either at Oxford Road or anywhere else, despite usually keeping a close eye on the cab monitors when stopped at stations, nor has anyone ever reported such an issue to me.

 

[fulmar]

Can the guards log these things or tell the driver to? Do you reckon they’re not bothering? I always thought they were meant to do all passenger interaction rather than the driver.

Yes guards can log faults and problems. Most of the guards I work with are very conscientious and will either tell the driver about any issues or will report it themselves to our maintenance controllers.

It is obviously easiest for passengers to talk to the guard but there is no problem with talking to drivers when the opportunity arises. We don't bite (well most of us don't anyway). It may not be possible at times for the driver to respond and we obviously can't talk to you whilst actually driving but if I see someone on a platform trying to get my attention I'll open the cab window and talk to them.

 

[Mogster]

I don't know of any MIA - Blackpool via Wigan services, whether 195-operated or not. There's one the other way - 0333SSuX ex-Blackpool, but even that doesn't actually call at Wigan.
Did you mean Barrow?

Yes it’ll be the Barrow service.

 

[mrcaa]

Yes guards can log faults and problems. Most of the guards I work with are very conscientious and will either tell the driver about any issues or will report it themselves to our maintenance controllers.

It is obviously easiest for passengers to talk to the guard but there is no problem with talking to drivers when the opportunity arises. We don't bite (well most of us don't anyway). It may not be possible at times for the driver to respond and we obviously can't talk to you whilst actually driving but if I see someone on a platform trying to get my attention I'll open the cab window and talk to them.

I’ll bear that in mind then. As I say though, the guards have acknowledged some of these issues in their announcement so I’d hope they’d have made the drivers aware too. I don’t get why CAF don’t have to come out and fix these issues themselves under warranty since they’re not even a year old yet. Or are they just blaming operator error?

 

[Philip]

Any new units introduced this week?

Couple of weeks ago a 195 did a full Manchester Airport-Blackpool diagram, in place of the 331/319.

I wonder when they'll start making appearances on Stalybridge-Wigan, Manchester-Sheffield via Marple and Chester via Lostock Gralam? I'd be surprised if they don't sooner or later.

 

[thejuggler]

I am aware this has been mentioned before, but on a rush hour service this morning I had no option than to stand in the middle of the vestibule - having nothing to hold on to is a serious omission in the design of the units. The fierce braking system doesn't help.

Will the new Northern management now pick up on such issues and look at implementing a solution?

 

[Cuboid]

^^ - this to me is one of the most dangerous thing as a passenger to experience, especially as with the new trains designed to allow more people to stand.

Why are there no grab handles from the ceiling (ala Class 185 in the wheelchair area or the newer Underground tube trains), or why is there no floor-ceiling pole directly in the middle of this area to allow passengers to grab on to it.

It's absolutely infuriating that they didn't bother actually testing mock-up carriage designs with a full load of testers on a wobble-rig!

And now it'll probably cost tens of thousands to retrofit it them as well (if they ever do).

 

[hwl]

I am aware this has been mentioned before, but on a rush hour service this morning I had no option than to stand in the middle of the vestibule - having nothing to hold on to is a serious omission in the design of the units. The fierce braking system doesn't help.

Will the new Northern management now pick up on such issues and look at implementing a solution?

They might pick up on it but there probably won't be a solution.
CAF and Eversholt would also get involved.

A lot of modern designs also have a lot hidden behind the ceiling panel above the vestibule which needs to be easily accessed for maintenance hence it isn't that easy to add more hand holds if it wasn't part of the original design thinking.

 

[hwl]

^^ - this to me is one of the most dangerous thing as a passenger to experience, especially as with the new trains designed to allow more people to stand.

Why are there no grab handles from the ceiling (ala Class 185 in the wheelchair area or the newer Underground tube trains), or why is there no floor-ceiling pole directly in the middle of this area to allow passengers to grab on to it.

It's absolutely infuriating that they didn't bother actually testing mock-up carriage designs with a full load of testers on a wobble-rig!

And now it'll probably cost tens of thousands to retrofit it them as well (if they ever do).

Simple - No one at Northern and Eversholt having recent experience of specifying high capacity trains. (Or relying on the sardine principle!)

 

[SteveM70]

Simple - No one at Northern and Eversholt having recent experience of specifying high capacity trains. (Or relying on the sardine principle!)

Or - quite probably - travelling on one in peak

 

[hwl]

Or - quite probably - travelling on one in peak

Or rather the Arriva bid team rather than Northern.

 

[Scotrail314209]

The Barrow service really should get an extra carriage added on. Those services are very busy, in particular after Preston.

 

[yorksrob]

It has always struck me that there are 3 conflicting points about the length of a train (as opposed to the length of one unit in the train):

• The train must be long enough to carry the number of passengers wanting to use it
• The train must be short enough to fit in all the platforms on the journey
• The DfT, with some input from the TOC, must allow enough units to be leased to allow operation at these levels, including growth over time.

In Northern's case, fitting trains into platforms is key ... and requires flexibility. If they had bought 4 carriage units, then the only possible trains are 4, 8 or 12 carriages - and it can take years to lengthen platforms to accommodate a single step increase. With a mix of 2 and 3 car units, they get the best flexibility ... as you can make a train with any number of carriages from 2 upwards. Growth can come 1 carriage at a time.

Of course, this can only work if you leased enough carriages & units to actually run in multi in this way, or DfT allowed it. Also that there is enough headroom for growth, and for servicing such that short forms don't happen.

Northern don't have that luxury right now. Winding down pacers, without a full complement of new trains, and with refurbishment still in full swing is always going to cause pain on allocations.

So I'm wary of converting every 2 car 195 into a 3 car. It loses flexibility in constructing multi-unit trains ... which you could only regain by gradually adding carriages to 3's to make 4s, and so on. 2's and 3's make for better building blocks in a non-homogeneous railway ... and is the whole point of MUs.

It all falls down when the bean counters prevent a TOC from responding to growing requirements.

Well I'm looking forward to seeing all of these three and four carriage trains on the Hallam line, but given most of the units have already been built now I'm not holding my breath. Putting in an order for some centre carriages is probably the best option available now.

 

[TheGarner]

There are a lot of posts about the door problems earlier in this thread.

I’m at Oxford Road for around 10 minutes in the evening around 16:10 waiting for the 16:21 Southport service. Initially the 195/331 door problems were happening with pretty much every Blackpool North and Lime Street service. Service arrives, doors released, pax press door release, doors open, pax begin to board at which point the rapid door close alarm sounds and the doors try to close with pax boarding.

Tbh I’ve not seen this happen much lately, I thought it had been resolved. Then a week or so ago I attempted to board a MIA - Blackpool via Wigan 195 service at Oxford Road and the old door craziness ensued...

I’m genuinely amazed crew aren’t aware of these door issues.

I saw the door issue in action on a 331 the other day at Oxford road. Was on a service that does a guard change, the new guard had to step in and "fix" the problem and commented that the previous guard pulled his key too quick. So staff are aware of the issues by the looks of it, it's just maybe some forget on how to prevent the issue from happening? Unless there are multiple situations on how the door issue can occur.

 

[mrcaa]

I saw the door issue in action on a 331 the other day at Oxford road. Was on a service that does a guard change, the new guard had to step in and "fix" the problem and commented that the previous guard pulled his key too quick. So staff are aware of the issues by the looks of it, it's just maybe some forget on how to prevent the issue from happening? Unless there are multiple situations on how the door issue can occur.

Maybe they just need a big sticker inside the door panels then if it’s easy to forget.