Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[Bletchleyite]

Northern have been like that for years with their random unit generator.

Oh, I know, and my view remains that they need to simplify everything to get back to a reliable service.

 

[Halish Railway]

Is this the first case where they have directly replaced Pacers rather than making 150s available from a cascade?

No - There were quite a few Leeds to Manchester Victoria via Bradford Interchange services that were booked for 142s, with a much bigger proportion of services operated by 142s on Sundays as 158s used to receive quite a bit of maintenance on Sundays.

Nowadays most of these services are operated by 195/1s and 2x 195/0s except for the occasional 158 cover and on Sundays when there are quite a few 158s and the occasional 150.

 

[MML]

I work them regularly and they are still rough riding.

And the brakes appear to squeal as the units slow down entering platforms, is that a common occurrence and known issue ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the brakes appear to squeal as the units slow down entering platforms, is that a common occurrence and known issue ?

Do they use sintered metal brake pads like 175s? They squeak by nature and always will.

 

[py_megapixel]

Will diesel services out towards Stockport (namely Buxton, Chester and Alderley Edge) ever see 195s? Or are they staying Sprinter for now?

 

[Geeves]

The pads and discs dont really get much use except at very low speed so no doubt that will add to the sounds levels. Good news on the 195s on the Hope Valley, hopefully they can keep up the perfect timetable of the last few months.

 

[northernchris]

Will diesel services out towards Stockport (namely Buxton, Chester and Alderley Edge) ever see 195s? Or are they staying Sprinter for now?

Northern released their unit diagrams for May - December earlier this year through a Freedom of Information request, and none of the above were 195s although the Alderley Edge service should be going to 769s

 

[LOL The Irony]

Will diesel services out towards Stockport (namely Buxton, Chester and Alderley Edge) ever see 195s? Or are they staying Sprinter for now?

In the far future or with a complete sprinter replacement, yes. 195's can go down the Mid-Cheshire Line. I don't know about Buxton or the Crewe - Manchester line yet (although they probably can go down the latter).

 

[Killingworth]

The pads and discs dont really get much use except at very low speed so no doubt that will add to the sounds levels. Good news on the 195s on the Hope Valley, hopefully they can keep up the perfect timetable of the last few months.

Sorry to say that as the number of trains operating and passengers travelling has risen punctuality has started to slip back again. The Hope Valley stations were dropping back to feature in the worst 500 in the country over the last 4 weeks, see On Time Trains Before COVID they were all in the worst 50. Maybe 195s can gain a few seconds along the way!

 

[py_megapixel]

In the far future or with a complete sprinter replacement, yes. 195's can go down the Mid-Cheshire Line. I don't know about Buxton or the Crewe - Manchester line yet (although they probably can go down the latter).

The 195s will surely do CRE-MAN, because 331s can? I can't see there being any loading gauge issues given that they use the same bodyshells.

Buxton might be more of an issue, depending on where the air conditioning equipment is fitted. IIRC 158s are banned from Buxton because the roof mounted air conditioning equipment can't clear some of the low bridges.

 

[Domh245]

The pads and discs dont really get much use except at very low speed so no doubt that will add to the sounds levels. Good news on the 195s on the Hope Valley, hopefully they can keep up the perfect timetable of the last few months.

How do they brake at not-low speeds then, if not with the pads and discs? They aren't electric motored so there's no rheo braking, do they rely on engine braking?

 

[507 001]

The 195s will surely do CRE-MAN, because 331s can? I can't see there being any loading gauge issues given that they use the same bodyshells.

Buxton might be more of an issue, depending on where the air conditioning equipment is fitted. IIRC 158s are banned from Buxton because the roof mounted air conditioning equipment can't clear some of the low bridges.

Below the sole bar is quite different though, which could cause some gauging issues.

 

[Liverpool 507]

195014 was noted in Southport yesterday on a crew training run from Springs Branch Depot.

 

[Geeves]

How do they brake at not-low speeds then, if not with the pads and discs? They aren't electric motored so there's no rheo braking, do they rely on engine braking?

Dom from Googling it says they use a hydro-dynamic brake to slow to a certain MPH then then discs to a stop

 

[Pacco]

Below the sole bar is quite different though, which could cause some gauging issues.

So what is the Buxton upgrade from 150/156 if not 195? Surely they thought of this when specifying the new class of train?

The old Sprinters can't carry on forever.

 

[py_megapixel]

So what is the Buxton upgrade from 150/156 if not 195? Surely they thought of this when specifying the new class of train?

The old Sprinters can't carry on forever.

There's a thread on this very topic here which you might find to be of interest.

 

[Tractor37]

How do they brake at not-low speeds then, if not with the pads and discs? They aren't electric motored so there's no rheo braking, do they rely on engine braking?

They use a hydro brake down to 24mph then the disc brake takes over.

 

[507 001]

So what is the Buxton upgrade from 150/156 if not 195? Surely they thought of this when specifying the new class of train?

The old Sprinters can't carry on forever.

As has been said on this forum many, many times, Just because something hasn't been cleared doesn't mean it can't or won't be cleared.

 

[Bikeman78]

And the brakes appear to squeal as the units slow down entering platforms, is that a common occurrence and known issue ?

I had my first ride on a 195 recently. The brakes were very jerky. Are they all like that? Trying to drink my coffee was challenging. The 508 I went on next was so much smoother. Also the seat to window alignment is very poor, even by modern standards. I'll definitely avoid them in future if I can.

 

[py_megapixel]

I had my first ride on a 195 recently. The brakes were very jerky. Are they all like that? Trying to drink my coffee was challenging. The 508 I went on next was so much smoother. Also the seat to window alignment is very poor, even by modern standards. I'll definitely avoid them in future if I can.

Known issues, at least on this forum. Bizzarely the sister 331 units are actual very smooth so it's unclear to me why the 195s are so jerky.

The poor window alignment is just caused by Northern doing a shambolic job of specification.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had my first ride on a 195 recently. The brakes were very jerky. Are they all like that? Trying to drink my coffee was challenging. The 508 I went on next was so much smoother. Also the seat to window alignment is very poor, even by modern standards. I'll definitely avoid them in future if I can.

I've noticed that they seem to be driven in an almost European style "positive braking" manner, i.e. come in very fast and slam on at the last second. This isn't the usual UK thing at all, so I guess the unit makes it difficult to do otherwise?

 

[LOL The Irony]

The poor window alignment is just caused by Northern doing a shambolic job of specification.

Correct. A fact further exemplified by none of the tables lining up with each other, which will be an inconvenience for large groups traveling together. When it comes to giving these a refurbishment in 6-8 years time, this issue should be addressed.

 

[Liverpool 507]

I had my first ride on a 195 recently. The brakes were very jerky. Are they all like that? Trying to drink my coffee was challenging. The 508 I went on next was so much smoother. Also the seat to window alignment is very poor, even by modern standards. I'll definitely avoid them in future if I can.

Known issues, at least on this forum. Bizzarely the sister 331 units are actual very smooth so it's unclear to me why the 195s are so jerky.

The poor window alignment is just caused by Northern doing a shambolic job of specification.

I find the seat to window alignment perfectly fine. Windows are big enough on them.

I do agree that the 331s are more smoother.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find the seat to window alignment perfectly fine

?!

Only the seats in the end sections are aligned to the windows. You might find the misalignment acceptable, as per say the Mk3 coach, but the alignment is objectively not "fine" - only about half the table seats in the middle section have an acceptable view.

 

[Liverpool 507]

?!

Only the seats in the end sections are aligned to the windows. You might find the misalignment acceptable, as per say the Mk3 coach, but the alignment is objectively not "fine" - only about half the table seats in the middle section have an acceptable view.

If you had the middle section correct, fewer capacity will be available. It is what it is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you had the middle section correct, fewer capacity will be available.

I don't agree. You'd have to have fewer tables, but the capacity could be maintained with alignment maintained by using slightly more airline seating to "reset" the alignment.

It is what it is.

For now, but that doesn't stop it being an incredibly poorly thought through design.

It was obvious enough to the designers of the Class 170 to design their unit around a window size that also equated to a bay size, so in most designs seats are near-fully aligned (probably because it derives from the Chiltern-specced Class 168, and stuff like that is rightly important to Chiltern). It seems whoever designed the Class 195 were too stupid, thoughtless, cheap or whatever to think of it. And CAF offer various window layouts on the Civity, you can see that the Class 196 layout is totally different.

It's one of the many reasons why I maintain that these units are a poor man's Turbostar. The 170 is just a much better version of essentially the same thing.

 

[Bikeman78]

I've noticed that they seem to be driven in an almost European style "positive braking" manner, i.e. come in very fast and slam on at the last second. This isn't the usual UK thing at all, so I guess the unit makes it difficult to do otherwise?

This was a stopper from Liverpool South Parkway to Lime Street. The driver seemed to be fairly cautious. It certainly wasn't fast but every time he touched the brake handle there was a noticable jerk; even crawling along the platform at Lime Street. It's not something that I've noticed on other new trains.

 

[samuelmorris]

This was a stopper from Liverpool South Parkway to Lime Street. The driver seemed to be fairly cautious. It certainly wasn't fast but every time he touched the brake handle there was a noticable jerk; even crawling along the platform at Lime Street. It's not something that I've noticed on other new trains.

From what I've heard, that's due to the design of the brake controller, nothing to do with driver behaviour/policy.

 

[Chorley Cake]

Has 133 been delivered yet ? And are 131 & 132 in service ?

 

[Geeves]

131 is showing as working a 1041 5H55 Allerton to Edge Hill this morning. Nothing for 132 yet though. 133 doesn't seem to be in the system.