Northern Class 195: Initial Diagrams

[sd0733]

195001 and 007 are back together in the bay at Oxford Road this morning on the normal diagram (001 Manchester end 007 Liverpool end)

 

[Bovverboy]

195001 and 007 are back together in the bay at Oxford Road this morning on the normal diagram (001 Manchester end 007 Liverpool end)

And that's where the party ended. For whatever reason, the pair didn't depart Oxford Road until 0930 (scheduled 0912); this was not only behind the 0916 CLC stopper (becoming a habit?) but also, crucially, behind a London Gateway to Trafford Park freight. A consequential c.6 minutes delay at Cornbrook Junction meant it was too late to loop the stopper at Glazebrook (whether it would have been is arguable) and, in the event, the semi-fast didn't pass the stopper until Wavertree.
A 1027 arrival into Lime Street led to the cancellation of the next journey (1016 Airport & 1150 return). The 195/0s look to be back up & running again now, with the 1316 ex-Lime Street.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that's where the party ended. For whatever reason, the pair didn't depart Oxford Road until 0930 (scheduled 0912); this was not only behind the 0916 CLC stopper (becoming a habit?) but also, crucially, behind a London Gateway to Trafford Park freight. A consequential c.6 minutes delay at Cornbrook Junction meant it was too late to loop the stopper at Glazebrook (whether it would have been is arguable) and, in the event, the semi-fast didn't pass the stopper until Wavertree.
A 1027 arrival into Lime Street led to the cancellation of the next journey (1016 Airport & 1150 return). The 195/0s look to be back up & running again now, with the 1316 ex-Lime Street.

I see the standard of operations on the CLC hasn't improved on what it was like in the late 90s, then...

 

[Bovverboy]

The 195/0s look to be back up & running again now, with the 1316 ex-Lime Street.

1616 and 1915 round trips now cancelled (would have been 195/0s), and a round trip on stoppers (non-195).

 

[Bovverboy]

and a round trip on stoppers (non-195).

The 1616 ex-Oxford Road (stopper) was cancelled and the next one (1646) was going to run non-stop from Warrington Central. That won't go down very well.
Bit of a distortion on 'Journey Check', reason for the skipped stops given as train having been delayed at Birchwood. Delayed 'by' Birchwood would have been nearer the truth, it actually left Oxford Road 10L (EMR 9L), lost a few more minutes after that, followed by a dwell of three minutes at WAC (presumably while people decided what to do). It was only 16L by WAC, I wouldn't have thought that in itself would justify stop-skipping, perhaps the train was overloaded, too.

 

[Bovverboy]

It was only 16L by WAC, I wouldn't have thought that in itself would justify stop-skipping

Yes it would, the semi-fast would have been right behind it by that time. The latter doesn't appear to have picked up any of the former's missed stops, but if it was a double 195/1 (as scheduled), it might not have been able to.

 

[156420]

It was only 16L by WAC, I wouldn't have thought that in itself would justify stop-skipping, perhaps the train was overloaded, too.

Yes it would, the semi-fast would have been right behind it by that time. The latter doesn't appear to have picked up any of the former's missed stops, but if it was a double 195/1 (as scheduled), it might not have been able to.

A good idea though as the next work of the guard at Lime St is 2J84 1817 Liverpool-Man Victoria, so any late running would have impacted on that!

 

[Bovverboy]

A good idea though as the next work of the guard at Lime St is 2J84 1817 Liverpool-Man Victoria, so any late running would have impacted on that!

The guard from what - the semi-fast, or the stopper?

 

[156420]

The guard from what - the semi-fast, or the stopper?

The one (16:46) which was 19 late at Warrington and skipped stops.

 

[Bovverboy]

A good idea though as the next work of the guard at Lime St is 2J84 1817 Liverpool-Man Victoria, so any late running would have impacted on that!

The guard from what - the semi-fast, or the stopper?

The one (16:46) which was 19 late at Warrington and skipped stops.

Not much scope for things going wrong, then. Is the guard Victoria-based?

What is it you are calling 'a good idea'?

 

[156420]

Not much scope for things going wrong, then. Is the guard Victoria-based?

What is it you are calling 'a good idea'?

Liverpool based, and was calling the idea to run non-stop good, not ideal, from a passenger perspective but it would have then impacted on the Chat Moss.

Anyway back to 195’s.

 

[Bovverboy]

Anyway back to 195’s.

The semi-fast would have comprised at least one 195 (probably two), so we're still on topic (just).

Liverpool based

I was guessing that a Liverpool-based guard would have his break at Liverpool, and that 1519 to 2027 would have been a greater stretch than a guard would work at a time - no?

and was calling the idea to run non-stop good, not ideal, from a passenger perspective but it would have then impacted on the Chat Moss.

You've got me completely lost there, sorry, surely to have failed to run non-stop from Warrington would have impacted on the 1817?

 

[156420]

The semi-fast would have comprised at least one 195 (probably two), so we're still on topic (just).



I was guessing that a Liverpool-based guard would have his break at Liverpool, and that 1519 to 2027 would have been a greater stretch than a guard would work at a time - no?



You've got me completely lost there, sorry, surely to have failed to run non-stop from Warrington would have impacted on the 1817?

They can have their breaks anywhere and no 1519-2027 is normal.

What I meant was, if the 16:46 hadn’t run non-stop due to late running, it would have impacted on the 18:17 and possibly it’s next work.

 

[Brissle Girl]

It’s hard to distinguish this thread from the more general one on the introduction of Class 195s, and the volume of posts makes it really difficult to use it as a reference source, which is what I thought was the intention. Or am I mistaken?

 

[Bovverboy]

It’s hard to distinguish this thread from the more general one on the introduction of Class 195s, and the volume of posts makes it really difficult to use it as a reference source, which is what I thought was the intention. Or am I mistaken?

I wouldn't have said that the 'Construction/Introduction Updates' thread was any more 'general' than this one - I mean, into which thread does information belong once the sets have been introduced? If I've time over the weekend I might have a go at tidying this 'Initial Diagrams' thread.

 

[Bovverboy]

Those of you who use the Airport line please be aware that, as from tomorrow, the 1133Su Airport - Windermere, 1245Su Airport - Middlesbrough (TPE) and 1248Su Airport - Liverpool are all amended to commence at Oxford Road (at 1153, 1309, and 1313 respectively). One consequence is the creation of a surprising 41-minute gap between successive trains from the Airport to Piccadilly (1110 to 1151). Three Blackpool Norths and two Middlesbroughs already commence at Oxford Road on a Sunday, of course. Inbound services are naturally affected, too.

 

[Bovverboy]

The Airport service is still only one-third 195-operated on Sundays, the other two diagrams remaining double 156 worked.

They will continue to be (for now) re 156’s. Buxton Crew work some of the Lime St-Airports between Manchester Ox Road-Airport & Return on a Sunday only but they don’t sign 195’s so they have to be 156’s, or any other substitute.

The two diagrams in operation on Airport - Liverpool this afternoon (Sunday 15/9/19) were both being covered by 195/1s.

The third diagram doesn't appear to have managed any public service at all. It ran ECS Newton Heath to Oxford Road (as scheduled, other than leaving NH 62L), then ran ECS Oxford Road - Liverpool Lime Street (in lieu of public service), then appears to have lurked in P10 at Lime Street for the rest of the day. So I don't know what sort of unit it was.

Has this requirement for Sunday 156s now gone by the board? If it has, is it from today?

 

[Bovverboy]

I've created a new thread to make the diagrams more accessible.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-195-diagrams-valid-15-9-19-to-20-10-19.193088/

 

[156420]

I'll start with the Sunday diagrams for Barrow/Windermere, which, up to now, haven't been posted here in their entirety.

First of all, Mike McNiven gave us three of the original diagrams (i.e. those effective from Sunday 7/7/19) in post #116.


There are a couple of corrections to make to 'Circuit 1'. The 1851 journey ex-Barrow terminates at Preston, and the 2046 journey starts there. If 'Circuit 1' and 'Circuit 2' are both operating (a big 'if') then the unit operating 'Circuit 2' attaches at Preston to the rear of the unit operating 'Circuit 1'. Any passengers in the rear unit (i.e. those coming from south of Preston) are required to transfer to the front unit and the rear unit is locked out of use for the journey to Barrow.

There was a fourth diagram effective from the same date, or, at least, it was covered by a 195 on that day and has since proved to be just as much a 195 diagram as the other three. This was given by myself in post #197, from information contained in 'Realtime Trains' and personal observation - I've since added ECS movements. I'll call it Diagram 4.

Diagram 4
0832 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
0840 Barrow - Manchester Oxford Road*
1102 Manchester Oxford Road - Manchester Oxford Road via Trafford Park East Junction ECS
1153 Manchester Oxford Road - Windermere*
1358 Windermere - Oxenholme
1423 Oxenholme - Windermere
1449 Windermere - Oxenholme
1535 Oxenholme - Windermere
1606 Windermere - Manchester Airport
1833 Manchester Airport - Barrow
2123 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS

*Prior to 15/9/19 these journeys continued to/started from Manchester Airport (1133 Airport to Windermere)

A further three Barrow/Windermere diagrams went 195-operated from 12/8/19, although one of those was covered by a 156 that day. All Sunday journeys venturing south of Lancaster were then scheduled to be 195-operated. I'll call them diagrams 5-7.

Diagram 5
0728 Newton Heath T&RSMD - Manchester Airport (ECS - rear unit)
0833 Manchester Airport - Windermere
1055 Windermere - Oxenholme
1118 Oxenholme - Windermere
1140 Windermere - Oxenholme
1201 Oxenholme - Windermere
1223 Windermere - Oxenholme
1247 Oxenholme - Windermere
1308 Windermere - Manchester Airport
1533 Manchester Airport - Barrow
1822 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS

Diagram 6
0728 Newton Heath T&RSMD - Manchester Airport (ECS - front unit)
0935 Manchester Airport - Barrow
1210 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
1342 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
1347 Barrow - Manchester Airport
1633 Manchester Airport - Barrow
1947 Barrow - Manchester Airport
2239 Manchester Airport - Newton Heath T&RSMD ECS
or
2251 Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
0012 Liverpool Lime Street - Allerton Depot ECS
(The above will probably vary week to week)

Diagram 7
1129 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
1137 Barrow - Manchester Airport
1433 Manchester Airport - Windermere
1709 Windermere - Oxenholme
1739 Oxenholme - Windermere
1800 Windermere - Oxenholme
1830 Oxenholme - Windermere
1901 Windermere - Manchester Airport
2125 Manchester Airport - Newton Heath T&RSMD ECS


To follow next - Sunday diagrams for Manchester Airport - Liverpool service.



(Incomplete post - don't be deterred from adding other posts, it'll take a while to finish this one)

That’s looks all accurate except Diagram 6 (which starts from Allerton at 0739) does the 0821 Liverpool-Airport then 0935 Airport-Barrow, then as you posted.

No 156’s on the Liverpool’s anymore, Buxton crew don’t work any now between the Airport-Oxford Road and vice-versa

 

[Bovverboy]

That’s looks all accurate except Diagram 6 (which starts from Allerton at 0739) does the 0821 Liverpool-Airport then 0935 Airport-Barrow, then as you posted.

I see that you're right, although finding platform continuity at the Airport can be a struggle. On RTT it seems there's only continuity after the journeys have operated, then of course there's only a week to pick the information up before it disappears. On 'Open Rail' there doesn't appear to be any platform continuity at all.

Diagram 5 is now out of date in that the unit is now scheduled to leave Newton Heath earlier and work 0736 Piccadilly to Airport all stops. No more leaving NH 80L, we presume. This arrangement only prevails until 20/10/19, after which the Windermere starts at Piccadilly; after only another few weeks there is another change in that the Windermere doesn't start until Preston, and even then slightly later.

 

[Bovverboy]

Acrobatics already, this morning. It seems that the 0551 Airport - Liverpool ran as a single 195/0 and departed 12L after 'waiting for a part of the train to be attached'. Can't see the point of waiting, really, the other part of the train hadn't left Newton Heath.
An inevitable late arrival at Liverpool (the turnaround time is far too tight for comfort) meant that the 0719 Lime Street to Oxford Road stopper was despatched ahead of the 0709 semi-fast. So it's almost a repeat of the performance of one morning last week, the only difference being that last week it was a two-car Pacer or Sprinter followed by a six-car 195, today it's (presumably) a four-car Pacer or Sprinter or combination, followed by a two-car 195. The outcome should be much the same.

 

[Bovverboy]

That’s looks all accurate except Diagram 6 (which starts from Allerton at 0739) does the 0821 Liverpool-Airport then 0935 Airport-Barrow, then as you posted.

I actually drafted the Sunday Barrow/Windermere diagrams several weeks ago, when three of the diagrams were still non-195. The only thing I find a little incongruous now is the fact that when Diagram 6 was non-195 I had it marked down as 158-operated, but I'm not aware that 158s have operated out of Allerton, or on Liverpool - Airport semi-fasts. I can't help but think that there is still a lack of continuity somewhere, i.e. the unit which does 0935 Airport - Barrow is not the same one which does 1947 Barrow - Airport. There's plenty of scope for that being the case, at Barrow units go off to the carriage sidings and it isn't always clear which one comes back. You reckon the latter parts of Diagram 6 are correct - are you sure about that?

 

[Bovverboy]

Acrobatics already, this morning.

The 0709 semi-fast finished up leaving Lime Street at 0741, only two minutes prior to the EMR (scheduled 0742). The passengers who didn't manage to get on the stopper might get to work late but they should at least manage to get on the semi-fast or EMR.

 

[JonathanH]

The performance of 1F90 0551 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street is not robust enough for an early train. If 5F90 from Newton Heath runs, there is only five minutes for the coupling process at the Airport so no slack at all. Even if 5F90 runs early, the 0544 to Blackpool is on top of the waiting 195 off 1H40 in the platform at the Airport. It seems to be dependent on what is at Liverpool overnight and gets sent to the Airport on 1H40. There doesn't seem to be any information for the traincrew of 1F90 as to whether and when 5F90 is coming.

 

[156420]

I actually drafted the Sunday Barrow/Windermere diagrams several weeks ago, when three of the diagrams were still non-195. The only thing I find a little incongruous now is the fact that when Diagram 6 was non-195 I had it marked down as 158-operated, but I'm not aware that 158s have operated out of Allerton, or on Liverpool - Airport semi-fasts. I can't help but think that there is still a lack of continuity somewhere, i.e. the unit which does 0935 Airport - Barrow is not the same one which does 1947 Barrow - Airport. There's plenty of scope for that being the case, at Barrow units go off to the carriage sidings and it isn't always clear which one comes back. You reckon the latter parts of Diagram 6 are correct - are you sure about that?

It was 158 operated until recently, 2 x 158’s came out NH and split and one was for the 0935. But the 0821 Liverpool-Airport was a 1 x 156 and stayed at the Airport until 1050 when it coupled up.

However, yesterday was the first day of the diagram change and this is what is now booked to happen.

But that is definitely the case with the 0935/1947 being the same units, they have a long layover at Barrow CS.

 

[Bovverboy]

The 0709 semi-fast finished up leaving Lime Street at 0741, only two minutes prior to the EMR (scheduled 0742). The passengers who didn't manage to get on the stopper might get to work late but they should at least manage to get on the semi-fast or EMR.

The 0719 ex-Lime Street stopper (which, you or may not recall, was despatched ahead of the 0709 semi-fast) seemed to make reasonable progress as far as Humphrey Park - only six and a half minutes late departure, that's not outstanding for anything coming off the CLC - then stood for five minutes at Trafford Park. There were no freights in the way - the only freight in the vicinity was itself required to give way to the stopper + semi-fast + EMR.
Imagine the situation - train already six and a half minutes late, then there's no room at the inn. The semi-fast and EMR wouldn't be stopping, the next chance would be the next stopper twenty minutes later (and even that was short-formed). To say there would be a riot, it's hard to imagine there wouldn't be one.

 

[Zooty]

195 124 on the 0708 Barrow-Lancaster and 0823 return. Is this a regular 195 turn?

 

[Bovverboy]

195 124 on the 0708 Barrow-Lancaster and 0823 return. Is this a regular 195 turn?

It is indeed, 195124 should be doing 1146 Barrow - Manchester Airport next.

All the current Monday-Friday diagrams are somewhere in this thread, but they're a bit scattered, which is why I'm currently trying to sort them into post #528 (above).
This is from post #304.

Barrow start (I'll call it Diagram 9)
0702 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
0708 Barrow - Lancaster
0823 Lancaster - Barrow
0934 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
1135 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
1146 Barrow - Manchester Airport
1429 Manchester Airport - Windermere
1706 Windermere - Oxenholme
1742 Oxenholme - Windermere
1807 Windermere - Oxenholme
1829 Oxenholme - Windermere
1855 Windermere - Manchester Airport
2234 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North (via Bolton)
0029 Blackpool North - Blackpool North CMD ECS

 

[js1000]

The performance of 1F90 0551 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street is not robust enough for an early train. If 5F90 from Newton Heath runs, there is only five minutes for the coupling process at the Airport so no slack at all. Even if 5F90 runs early, the 0544 to Blackpool is on top of the waiting 195 off 1H40 in the platform at the Airport. It seems to be dependent on what is at Liverpool overnight and gets sent to the Airport on 1H40. There doesn't seem to be any information for the traincrew of 1F90 as to whether and when 5F90 is coming.

The logistics of Circuit 6 are proving to be troublesome. Operating this morning but no 6 coach 195 & substituted with a 4 coach Pacer this morning.

 

[Bovverboy]

Now that the 2210 ex-Airport terminates at Preston on a Saturday, can anyone say how the fourth 195 gets to Barrow? There still seem to be four starting there on Sunday mornings.

Getting back to the present, can anyone say what's operating 0916 Lime Street - Airport atm?