Northern Class 195: Initial Diagrams

[D.K.TAYLOR]

It's currently running paired to 195119 on a (very) delayed 1516 Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport semi-fast. 37L at Oxford Road!

Yes l was waiting at Oxford Road went on RTT saw it was 34 late so decided that the 16-27 Man Picc Bournemouth home was a better move save it for another day it was announced as delayed due to awaiting train crew

 

[Bovverboy]

Is 195007 in operation today please info appreciated

195007 was presumably doubled up with 195119 this morning as well, since 195001 was on a Barrow start. We haven't heard that Diagrams 6 & 7 stayed together between peaks, so 195007 probably stayed in P8 at Lime Street in the interim, being recoupled to 195119 for this afternoon's trip. Afterwards it was detached and, according to RTT, dropped back an hour on to the 1915 (delayed - again) departure for the Airport. It will no doubt stay on the diagram until close of service, since it should finish at Newton Heath. 195001 should finish there too, so 195001/7 might be back together tomorrow, although on what I couldn't say.

 

[Bovverboy]

Could anyone advise if they see either of 195001/195007 in use today, please? Time & location, of course.

 

[Seehof]

Is there any date yet for them to be introduced on the York - Blackpool service? Presumably, they will be three class sets.

 

[Bovverboy]

Is there any date yet for them to be introduced on the York - Blackpool service? Presumably, they will be three class sets.

11/11/19, according to what's been said on the Construction/Introduction Updates thread.

Apologies if this has already been posted. ARN's current plans for 195 introduction east of the Pennines are:

• 21/10 - 10 195s on Leeds - Chester services
• 11/11 - 8 195s on York - Blackpool services
• 15/12 - 10 195s on Leeds - Lincoln and Leeds - Nottingham services

I don't know what the plans are in respect of which units (195/0, 195/1) will be used on which routes or if there will be any double 195/0s in use. I think that Leeds - Chester requires 6 units (although these currently interwork with Leeds - Manchester Victoria services and if this remains the case 9 units are needed). The York - Blackpool services will no londer interwork with Leeds - York stoppers from December 2019 and therefore need 5 units (7 units required while interworking remains) and the Leeds - Lincoln - Leeds - Nottingham - Leeds circuit requires 10 units.

The above means between 21 and 26 units at least (mostly 158s, and assuming all current diagrams are worked by single units, which is not the case on all Calder Valley services) will be released by mid-December 2019.

 

[Bovverboy]

I didn't bother reporting last Sunday's 195 cancellations, it seemed a pretty average Sunday, with about 25% of scheduled Barrow/Windermere services cancelled, and a slightly higher proportion of Airport -Liverpool. Terrible, really, isn't it, when a 25% cancellation rate can be considered the norm.
I would say that, up to now, cancellations for today are running slightly higher than those for last Sunday.

 

[Bovverboy]

Has anyone seen 195001 or 195007 either yesterday (Sat) or today? Or any non-195s running on Barrow/Windermere diagrams?

 

[Bovverboy]

I didn't bother reporting last Sunday's 195 cancellations, it seemed a pretty average Sunday, with about 25% of scheduled Barrow/Windermere services cancelled, and a slightly higher proportion of Airport -Liverpool. Terrible, really, isn't it, when a 25% cancellation rate can be considered the norm.
I would say that, up to now, cancellations for today are running slightly higher than those for last Sunday.

Yes, cancellations for today on Barrow/Windermere have been up on last Sunday, the final casualty list represents about a third of the scheduled journeys. Some big gaps, too - e.g out of the last six scheduled departures from Manchester Airport only one actually operated, although four of the others were started at Preston.
Airport to Liverpool has, though, done better than last week, with only c.18% of scheduled journeys cancelled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Going to the Lakes on Friday afternoon - what's my current chance of finding a 195 along the way to see if my impression of them changes with a second go?

 

[Bovverboy]

Going to the Lakes on Friday afternoon - what's my current chance of finding a 195 along the way to see if my impression of them changes with a second go?

Well, you'll find some, that's for sure. The seven diagrams on Manchester Airport - Barrow/Windermere have all been scheduled to be 195-operated since 12/8/19, and, just recently, substitution (by, say 156s) has been virtually unheard of. Any 195 shortage has recently been countered by short-forming sets on Manchester Airport - Liverpool, or cancelling journeys on that route altogether*. The main threat for journeys on Barrow/Windermere is for them to be cancelled through non-availability of train staff, and, in that, the route seems to come off worse than most others. Sundays are generally the worst days (yesterday, for instance, cancellations were approximately a third of scheduled journeys), but there have been bad days on other days of the week (with cancellations of up to one journey in four). However, they are very much the exception to the rule. Cancellations south of Preston seem to be far more likely than cancellations north thereof.
Note that, apart from one early-morning journey Barrow-Lancaster-Barrow, journeys which don't come south of Lancaster are all still 156-operated. There is also an afternoon (NSu) Preston to Carlisle journey (via the Cumbrian coast) and that, too, is covered by a 156.

* EDIT: Or, on odd occasions, substituting a Pacer or double Pacer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cheers, excellent information there. Will have a look to see if I can find one that isn't canned!

 

[Bevan Price]

Seem to have been several cancellations on Liverpool - Manchester Airport today (23 Sept.).
Four 195s parked in Lime Street at about 10:30 this morning:
195.119 (Platform 7); 195.001/007 (P.8) & 195.118 (P.10)

 

[Karl]

Cheers, excellent information there. Will have a look to see if I can find one that isn't canned!

While you are up North you should take advantage of the current £10 Northern Ranger newspaper offer. Three tokens from the participating papers will get you the chance to buy up to 4 Rangers for £10 each to travel all day anywhere on Northern's network. You could even get a 142 back home to Ormskirk!

 

[Bovverboy]

Seem to have been several cancellations on Liverpool - Manchester Airport today (23 Sept.).
Four 195s parked in Lime Street at about 10:30 this morning:
195.119 (Platform 7); 195.001/007 (P.8) & 195.118 (P.10)

The 0816, 0916, and 1016 journeys to Manchester Airport, and related returns, were all cancelled, predominantly, it seems, as a consequence of a security alert at the Airport, which lasted several hours. Strangely, RTT gives the reason for cancellation of the 0916 as code TH (lack of a conductor), so perhaps that journey wouldn't have operated whether there was a security alert or not. Other 195 journeys cancelled today have been 0613 Wilmslow & return, 1316 Airport & return, and 1616 Airport and return - all those reported as cancelled by virtue of driver shortage.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/naked-man-sparks-manchester-airport-16965373

Is it Settle where there is or was a 'Ye Olde Naked Man Cafe'?

EDIT: In answer to that question, Settle is indeed where it is.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnnyenglish/4679970538/

 

[Bovverboy]

The diagram commencing 0650 Airport - Liverpool is coming up on 'Journey Check' as being formed of two carriages instead of three, which is self-explanatory, but that beginning 0551 ex-Airport is showing as three instead of six. I presume it's a 195/1 operating it, but we have the diagram recorded as being booked for a four-coach set, rather than a six.
Two diagrams on CLC stoppers are also showing as short-formed.

 

[Bovverboy]

I'm forever being reminded that Northern doesn't miss an opportunity to stop running trains. When, a few years ago, I started to get back into train travel I did notice that, whenever there were late-night engineering works taking place on my local line, there were trains which could really have run, but didn't do. Well, why run trains when you can get compensated by NR for not doing?
Yesterday, we had the security alert at the Airport. Any sets operating Liverpool semi-fasts at the time (which, as it happened, was only two out of the three scheduled) were allowed to return to Lime Street but were then grounded until the alert was over.
Hmm. The fact that there might be a security alert at Manchester Airport wouldn't strike me as any reason to not run semi-fasts between Liverpool Lime Street and, say, Manchester Oxford Road. Ah, I hear you say, that would take out a platform at Oxford Road. It wouldn't, the timetable effectively facilitates a more or less immediate departure - arrivals at Oxford Road are generally xx.07 and departures xx.12, or thereabouts.

 

[156420]

I'm forever being reminded that Northern doesn't miss an opportunity to stop running trains. When, a few years ago, I started to get back into train travel I did notice that, whenever there were late-night engineering works taking place on my local line, there were trains which could really have run, but didn't do. Well, why run trains when you can get compensated by NR for not doing?
Yesterday, we had the security alert at the Airport. Any sets operating Liverpool semi-fasts at the time (which, as it happened, was only two out of the three scheduled) were allowed to return to Lime Street but were then grounded until the alert was over.
Hmm. The fact that there might be a security alert at Manchester Airport wouldn't strike me as any reason to not run semi-fasts between Liverpool Lime Street and, say, Manchester Oxford Road. Ah, I hear you say, that would take out a platform at Oxford Road. No it wouldn't, the timetable effectively facilitates a more or less immediate departure - arrivals at Oxford Road are generally xx.07 and departures xx.12, or thereabouts.

It’s a Network Rail/Northern agreement, when there is disruption on the Airport line or at Picc/Oxford Road, this is an agreed contingency plan requested by Network Rail, that all Liverpool-Manchester Airport services are removed from service completely, to ease congestion.

It’s no good having them turnback at Oxford Road as there are then crew implications.

 

[Bovverboy]

It’s a Network Rail/Northern agreement, when there is disruption on the Airport line or at Picc/Oxford Road, this is an agreed contingency plan requested by Network Rail, that all Liverpool-Manchester Airport services are removed from service completely, to ease congestion.

Yes, I'd heard this before, of course, and I presume there is a similar agreement between NR and TPE that any ex-Leeds and beyond services are terminated at Victoria. That doesn't seem as bad, you still have to find a way for passengers to get between Victoria and Oxford Road/Piccadilly (or leave them to their own devices, I fear) but at least capacity between Manchester and Leeds isn't actually being reduced. To knock the Liverpool semi-fasts off seems more drastic, and I'm inclined to ask why the service exists at all, if it can be so easily dispensed with.

It’s no good having them turnback at Oxford Road as there are then crew implications.

I did think this one through, and my conclusion was that you'd need to be careful where crews were (i.e. if they were due to come off at Oxford Road at such-and-such a time, it wouldn't be any good having them at Liverpool) but it didn't take a lot of working out that, as long as you weren't short of crews in the first place, you wouldn't actually run out of them. In any case, if turning ex-Liverpool semi-fasts at Oxford Road was an accepted strategy, you could have revised crew duties pre-prepared.
In the simplest scenario you could have crews doing their scheduled duties, but having an hour off at Oxford Road instead of going to the Airport and back.

 

[156420]

I did think this one through, and my conclusion was that you'd need to be careful where crews were (i.e. if they were due to come off at Oxford Road at such-and-such a time, it wouldn't be any good having them at Liverpool) but it didn't take a lot of working out that, as long as you weren't short of crews in the first place, you wouldn't actually run out of them. In any case, if turning ex-Liverpool semi-fasts at Oxford Road was an accepted strategy, you could have revised crew duties pre-prepared.
In the simplest scenario you could have crews doing their scheduled duties, but having an hour off at Oxford Road instead of going to the Airport and back.

It’d be a dream if it was that easy, but you can have different traincrew combinations on these - Liverpool Driver & Man Picc guard, Man Picc Driver and guard or even Wigan between the Airport & Oxford Road etc it gets too complicated at times.

eg: Off the top of my head, there’s a service Liverpool-Man Airport, that’s a Liverpool driver and guard as far as Oxford Road, the driver gets relieved by a Wigan driver the guard stays on it, the Wigan driver then drives it Oxford Road-Airport-Oxford Road and gets relieved by a Manchester Piccadilly driver at Oxford Road.

Now the Manchester Piccadilly driver is fresh on and goes passenger from Picc-Oxford Road to relieve the Wigan driver, now if that service terminated at Oxford Road inbound you’d have to get the Piccadilly driver passenger on another service which would mean a late start and as a result congestion.

 

[Bovverboy]

It’d be a dream if it was that easy, but you can have different traincrew combinations on these - Liverpool Driver & Man Picc guard, Man Picc Driver and guard or even Wigan between the Airport & Oxford Road etc it gets too complicated at times.

eg: Off the top of my head, there’s a service Liverpool-Man Airport, that’s a Liverpool driver and guard as far as Oxford Road, the driver gets relieved by a Wigan driver the guard stays on it, the Wigan driver then drives it Oxford Road-Airport-Oxford Road and gets relieved by a Manchester Piccadilly driver at Oxford Road.

Now the Manchester Piccadilly driver is fresh on and goes passenger from Picc-Oxford Road to relieve the Wigan driver, now if that service terminated at Oxford Road inbound you’d have to get the Piccadilly driver passenger on another service which would mean a late start and as a result congestion.

Of the above, the only scenario which wouldn't immediately fit into my last suggestion would be the one of the Piccadilly driver joining at Piccadilly. Okay, if there's no xx.09 Liverpool you bring him on nine minutes earlier and he catches the xx.00 Blackpool to Ox Road; or you put him in a taxi.

Lets for the sake of argument suppose that trains are running reasonably normally but the Wigan driver is unavailable (for whatever reason) and the train gets cancelled Oxford Road-Airport-Oxford Road. How do you get the Piccadilly driver from Picc to Ox Road then? The answer is, you think of a way, it's no big deal.

Traincrew duties do seem to be unduly complicated!

 

[Bovverboy]

I see that 195 diagrams ticked along reasonably well for most of today, the 1016 Liverpool - Airport and 1150 return being the principal daytime casualty.
Things seem to have suddenly hit the rough this evening, with the cancellation of the last through Barrow - Airport journey (1943) and last return (2210). Reason for the cancellations given on RTT as 'an issue with the train crew' - bearing in mind that there is, to the best of my knowledge, a scheduled crew change each way, perhaps the explanation should be 'an issue with the train crews'.

 

[Bovverboy]

Whoops! Apparently the 1855 Windermere - Airport was cancelled after Preston, and the 2234 Airport - Blackpool North was cancelled altogether. I missed those because, at the moment, they're not showing on RTT as cancelled.
The 2210 Barrow and 2234 Blackpool North are two consecutive departures from the Airport, so their combined cancellation won't have gone down too well.
According to 'Journey Check', the 2210 has been replaced by four road vehicles - one from the Airport, one from Preston, and two from Lancaster. From my own knowledge of the 2210 service I would say Northern would have been very lucky to accommodate all Airport-Piccadilly, and Piccadilly-Wigan/Preston passengers on one coach. (The wording is full-sized coach). Passengers from Wigan were advised to travel on a Blackpool train as far as Preston.
Tomorrow's 0337 Liverpool to Manchester Piccadilly is already showing as cancelled. (It's not running to the Airport this week due to engineering works on the Airport line).

 

[ScottGallagher]

Are all the Barrow to Airport trains now 195? I'm getting the 1202 from Lancaster to Barrow on Saturday when I'm the sticks from London .
Cheers

 

[js1000]

Whichever train was the 19:50 from Manchester Airport to Liverpool yesterday - another incident of air con failing. It was sweltering.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whichever train was the 19:50 from Manchester Airport to Liverpool yesterday - another incident of air con failing. It was sweltering.

14something Windermere-Oxenholme today had no aircon in the front coach. The one I had on Friday up to Windermere had several leaks from the ceiling.

To be fair, my overall impression was a bit better this time (and the overhead racks are huge - swallowed my massive rucksack easily). But I'd still say they're a poor man's 170, and there are some serious build quality issues. Not a patch on what Herr Siemens builds!

 

[Bovverboy]

Are all the Barrow to Airport trains now 195? I'm getting the 1202 from Lancaster to Barrow on Saturday when I'm the sticks from London .
Cheers

All Barrow to Manchester Airport and return trains (and, for that matter, all Windermere to Manchester Airport and return trains) have been diagrammed for 195 operation since 12 August. At that stage substitution by 156s was still commonplace, but more recently 195s being substituted on the Lakes lines has been non-existent, to my knowledge. In that the Lakes lines now seem to get priority over the Liverpool to Manchester Airport service.
However service cancellations can, and do, occur by virtue of crew shortages and technical issues (and, over the last couple of days, by flooding of lines).
Please note that, with the exception of one morning Barrow-Lancaster-Barrow journey (NSu) all journeys coming no further south than Lancaster are still diagrammed for 156s. An afternoon Preston to Carlisle journey (NSu) should also be a 156.

 

[Jamesrob637]

16:34 Airport to Barrow full and standing at Picc. Is this usually just 3-car or is one set missing today?

 

[Bovverboy]

16:34 Airport to Barrow full and standing at Picc. Is this usually just 3-car or is one set missing today?

It's diagrammed for a 195/1 (i.e. 3-car).
The 1610 Airport - Edinburgh (TPE) was cancelled to Preston today, that may have had consequences for following services.

 

[Jamesrob637]

It's diagrammed for a 195/1 (i.e. 3-car).
The 1610 Airport - Edinburgh (TPE) was cancelled to Preston today, that may have had consequences for following services.

Plausible. I was going to Edinburgh but fortunately wasn't booked on the direct service. Thanks to VT Preston to Edinburgh being delayed I had time to grab a Subway opposite whatever the shopping centre adjacent to the station is called. Very friendly service; I told the young guy serving where I was headed and he packed three cookies rather than one

 

[td97]

16:34 Airport to Barrow full and standing at Picc. Is this usually just 3-car or is one set missing today?

Usually 3 car and usually full and standing through Manchester onwards. The immediately following 319 to Blackpool North is a better choice for stations south of Preston.