Northern Class 195: Initial Diagrams

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by mikemcniven, 26 Jun 2019.

  1. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    The random unit generator rides again. I'm waiting for the day when we get a photo posted here of a 195 behind a Pacer and some very puzzled staff stood there looking at the rather different couplers.

    There haven't been many Pacers scrapped yet, have there? This being the case, only their classic total lack of competence would seem to prevent them dropping 14x and 15x in to maintain train lengths when 195s fail with teething issues?
     
  2. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    As has been previously pointed out, the mix of 195 types ordered (2-car and 3-car) enables train formations of anything from 2 carriages to 6 carriages to be formed. I don't think Northern have ordered the wrong mix of train sets, they've just decided they're not going to use any more of them than they're forced.
     
  3. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Chiltern do very well with a similar mix of lengths - it allows formation of 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6-car sets (and longer if desired). But they don't put 2s out unless 2 is enough (mostly).
     
  4. Jamesrob637

    Jamesrob637 Member

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    Is 2 ever sufficient on Chiltern?! Slightly off topic I appreciate. However, steering things back to 195s, I agree that too many 2-car sets were ordered. Some should have been 4-car from the off. However I believe a contingency plan is in place to strengthen some 3-car sets.
     
  5. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    Strengthen them with what? An extra carriage, ordered from CAF?

    However much you strengthen sets, it doesn't alter the fact that services are being seriously short-formed (to the extent that the short-forming almost equates to a cancellation) while newly-delivered 195s and 331s are sat idle at depots, and Pacers are being placed into 'warm storage'.

    P.S. To create a four-car set, all you do is couple two two-car units together.
     
  6. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    At very quiet times of day, believe it or not, yes it can be, particularly on the Aylesbury runs.
     
  7. northernchris

    northernchris Member

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    You stated that 195s were being used on training runs when they weren't enough available for service. Delaying the training would cause further problems later on, so it makes sense to have a period of low availability for passenger use rather than to delay the training program. We don't know if there were reasons why the units which were passed for public use weren't in service, but I'd like to think Northern aren't having 195s idly parked up whilst numerous services are running shortformed
     
  8. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    To the best of my knowledge, Northern are currently in possession of thirty of the thirty-three 195/1s on order. Only 9/10* are scheduled for daily service, yet most days at least one diagram seems to be short-formed. You don't think they have any 'idly parked up'?

    * The impreciseness is down to me not being absolutely sure of the current balance between diagrammed 195/1s and diagrammed 195/0s. The diagram which was ostensibly going to be covered by a double 195/1 may have been re-diagrammed as a 195/1+195/0 combination - now that there are three 195/0s theoretically available, that situation is credible.
     
  9. jawr256

    jawr256 Member

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    To add to the observations of short-forming, 1C57 (1634 Manchester Airport to Barrow) was a 2-car 156 instead of a 3-car 195/1 today and yesterday, with announcers at Piccadilly pro-actively advising passengers for Bolton and Chorley to wait for the next service six minutes behind, before boarding had started. JourneyCheck attributed the short-forming to a train fault.

    Today I also saw the inbound 1U98 (1446 Barrow to Manchester Airport) on its way to form 1C73 (1729 Manchester Airport to Windermere) was a 156, though not noted on JourneyCheck.
     
    Last edited: 16 Oct 2019
  10. northernchris

    northernchris Member

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    As we don't know how many units are on crew training / maintenance / faulty it's impossible to answer. Their faults have been widely publicised so it's likely the number unavailable is high
     
  11. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    Of the thirty 195/1s I estimate to be in Northern's possession, only thirteen (to my knowledge) have been in public service. Of those, no more than nine were in service yesterday, but fewer than nine would have been a poor day (worse than average). So taking the assumption that nine is the number which were actually in service, and also assuming that the two set aside for routine maintenance were actually receiving it (which wouldn't be the case every day), that leaves two unavailable for other reasons.
    I think you'd be very lucky to find a day on which more than six 195/1s were engaged on driver training, etc, so that leaves around eleven unaccounted for. Setting another two aside for routine maintenance, you're still left with nine unaccounted for. So if your theory is correct (i.e. any unaccounted for are stopped with faults) it would appear that they are picking up infinitely more faults doing periodic driver training than they are doing running up and down, day in, day out, in regular service.
     
  12. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    Were you still around when the following service (Blackpool) arrived?
     
  13. Jamesrob637

    Jamesrob637 Member

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    1F96 cancelled tonight - excuse unknown
     
  14. jawr256

    jawr256 Member

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    Afraid not - I was on the Barrow train.
     
  15. Grannyjoans

    Grannyjoans Member

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    I keep hearing rumours that the 195's are getting taken off all the Barrow-Airports and replaced by 158s - Anyone know why ?
     
  16. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    I've no idea whether or not this is correct, but a good answer would be to enable Northern to keep its promise to put 195s on Chester - Leeds!
     
  17. Grannyjoans

    Grannyjoans Member

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    If it does happen, hopefully it will only be a temporary change not a permanent one
     
  18. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    'Journey Check' and 'Realtime Trains' both say driver shortage.
     
  19. Bevan Price

    Bevan Price Established Member

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    Well - yesterday (15 Oct.), the 15:38 Leeds - Ellesmere Port had the "luxury" of a single 142...., so time that some new trains were put on those services.
     
  20. SeaKing

    SeaKing Member

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    Nearly 6 hours at Man Pic yesterday the 14.00, 16.00 & 17.00 to the airport all were worked by 156's. Only 6 195's appeared between 12.00 & 17.45.
     
  21. M60lad

    M60lad Member

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    Plenty of 195s stabled at Newton Heath during the day why these aren't being used I'm not to sure and why their not out picking up mileage so they can enter service I'm not to sure of either.
     
  22. Llama

    Llama Established Member

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    A fair few of those on Newton Heath are knackers for various reasons.
     
  23. northernchris

    northernchris Member

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    It isn't a theory - I was trying to point out that it's possible some 195s aren't available for service for whatever reason and Northern aren't deliberately sending out a solo 156 in place of a 3 car 195. Anyway, Llama's post explains more

     
  24. Grannyjoans

    Grannyjoans Member

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    How many 195's are there now ? (including all the ones in service, parked on depots, and running on tests)
    There seems to be very few in service compared to the amount that have been ordered. 6 was mentioned above ?
    How many are still yet to come ?
     
  25. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    I don't think that Llama's post really alters anything - it doesn't alter the fact that the vast majority of units currently not being used in service are those which have never been so used.
    As I said above, to the best of my knowledge only thirteen 195/1s have seen public service, and, of those, ten are diagrammed for daily use - nine on a Sunday. Recently the number actually in service has averaged about nine - so that gives an availability of about 70%.
    I've also said above that you'd be lucky to find a day on which there were more than six units engaged on training, etc. Well on Thursday of last week, for example, I could only find evidence of five 195s in use on training - of those two started at Huddersfield sidings, one at Wigan Wallgate Up Siding, one at Blackpool North CMD, and one at Doncaster. They may not have all been 195/1s, they may have included 195/0s, but even if we suppose they were all 195/1s, that means only five were in use out of the seventeen theoretically available - which gives an availability of about 30%. So, as I said previously, this implies that they are picking up infinitely more faults when engaged on training duties to what they are doing when in regular service - and that ignores the fact that, on a training day, a unit will usually only do about half the mileage it would do in normal service.
    Unless, of course, Northern are deliberately keeping units aside..
     
  26. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    We're pretty sure that thirty 195/1s (three-car units) are in Northern's hands (out of thirty-three on order), but only thirteen have been in public service. As I've said above, nine would probably be a realistic estimation of how many have recently been in use on a daily basis.
    Of the 195/0s (two-car units), only twenty-five are on order, and nothing like that number have been received by Northern, although I don't know what the actual number is. Only three have seen public service.
    SeaKing was particularly unlucky in only seeing six in service, he did miss seeing one particular 195 diagram, but, all the same, no more than seven 195s in use is probably the worst day for a long time.
     
  27. JonathanH

    JonathanH Established Member

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    So 195102/9/114-22/4/5?

    This is easier 195001/2/7.
     
  28. Llama

    Llama Established Member

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    One thing I should add to that is that the majority of driver training is 'static', which does need a working* 195 in a training location such as Huddersfield, Blackpool, Wigan CS, Doncaster, Worksop etc.

    Only one day on the driver training course is actually driving the units (minimum four hours handling time) where they will use one of the usual 5Zxx/5Wxx handling paths, although part of the assessment (passout) on the 195s with a driver manager might also use one of those paths as some driving is required on that - particularly if one driver manager is passing two drivers out. The alternative to those paths is to relieve the driver of a service train for the passout drive.

    * by working, I mean is passed 'fit to run on Network Rail infrastructure' and with all systems basically working but may contain faults or need software updates or certain parts, I don't mean necessarily 'passed fit for passenger service'.
     
  29. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    Yes, they were the ones I had in mind.

     
  30. Llama

    Llama Established Member

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    Quick Q, I notice that 2E01 Manchester Victoria to Leeds is booked 2x 195 from Monday, on arrival in Leeds they are booked to detach then one unit is diagrammed to work 2H12 to Carlisle and the other 1D72 to Chester. I wasn't aware of 195s being introduced over the S&C yet, or am I wrong?
     

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