Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

[pemma]

Are we allowed to say these seats are ‘new’?

No you have to say their 'brand new' as 'new' means something different.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That does look good, let's see if we manage to keep them on the Blackpool / Manchester Airport route a bit longer this time... ( Was 156s, then replaced by 175s. They were nicked off us for Wales and we got the 156s back. But then came the 185s - ah, at last, a modern train again. Only to be replaced with 156s (most of the day) when the route went back to Northern!!!).

And unfortunately you lost the good (ex-RRNW) 156s with the Chapman seats, and got the ex-RRNE ones with the Richmond seating that is all falling to bits.

 

[pemma]

That does look good, let's see if we manage to keep them on the Blackpool / Manchester Airport route a bit longer this time... ( Was 156s, then replaced by 175s. They were nicked off us for Wales and we got the 156s back. But then came the 185s - ah, at last, a modern train again. Only to be replaced with 156s (most of the day) when the route went back to Northern!!!).

The 156s were reintroduced under TPE. They were forced to loan 156s from Northern after the 170s were nicked for use in the Chilterns, only for the route to become Northern (using the same mix of 156s and 185s) on the franchise change date.

 

[pemma]

And unfortunately you lost the good (ex-RRNW) 156s with the Chapman seats, and got the ex-RRNE ones with the Richmond seating that is all falling to bits.

The ex-RRNW 156s still operate in the North West, it's just they are complimented by ex-RRNE ones instead of much nicer 158s. I think the ex-RRNW even do a better job of staying in the North West than the ex-FNW 150s which seem to visit Leeds and York quite regularly.

 

[xotGD]

So much better seating than on the 333s. No need to wait for a 158 on a Carlisle turn once these arrive.

 

[SansHache]

First article from today's press launch now available.
http://m.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/caf-presents-first-civity-emu-for-northern.html

 

[IanXC]

Hopeless window alignment.

As far as can be seen in that video there are an equal number of tables aligned perfectly with windows, as there are that have a pillar - which notably do not seem to be centred on the table in any of the bays. No sign of an airline seat which has entirely a view of plastic either - unlike Pendolinos, Voyagers or IETs.

I'm not sure how that can be hopeless, or what word you would use for the many types of stock with worse window alignment?

 

[Starmill]

I think the ambiance, once fully fitted out and the temporary plastic removed and so on, will be very good based on these shots.

 

[Starmill]

As far as can be seen in that video there are an equal number of tables aligned perfectly with windows, as there are that have a pillar - which notably do not seem to be centred on the table in any of the bays. No sign of an airline seat which has entirely a view of plastic either - unlike Pendolinos, Voyagers or IETs.

I'm not sure how that can be hopeless, or what word you would use for the many types of stock with worse window alignment?

I find it difficult to understand how a bay can be anything but aligned with a window, given they all seem to be designed to be the same size so the coach looks in proportion. Pendolinos have very large gaps between the windows, which is a different criticism. Almost all of their bay seating does line up with a window. Voyagers for the most part have the same problem as was shown in the press image in that they have bays and windows that are the same size but with just one exception they don't line up.

Some of the stock that these trains replace has an almost perfect layout, including 323s, 156s and 185s, which don't have anything like that, and almost every seat has the best possible view. The layout is however vastly better than the one in a 319.

 

[xotGD]

First article from today's press launch now available.
http://m.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/caf-presents-first-civity-emu-for-northern.html

First time I have seen mention of a possible extension to 5-car sets.

 

[507021]

First time I have seen mention of a possible extension to 5-car sets.

I wonder if they are the optional extra vehicles which are mentioned in the first paragraph are. It would be good if the options are for extra 195 and 331 carriages, but hopefully we'll get some clarification soon.

Either way, I think it's great to hear there's an option for additional carriages available.

 

[fgwrich]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #9 were originally in this master thread.

Here is the first just about completed class 331 - still awaits tables, etc.


View attachment 42149


View attachment 42147 View attachment 42148

Very smart indeed. And it's fantastic to see CAF Continue with something they seem to excel at - Making very spacious trains with impressively high ceilings. Something Bombardier could do with learning from (considering how claustrophobic the *Star family seem to be). As for the table / seat / window alignment in the 2nd picture - I don't actually mind that as much as both seats on either side of the table seem to get some part of a window view, only the middle of the table loses out.

 

[47802]

I wonder if they are the optional extra vehicles which are mentioned in the first paragraph are. It would be good if the options are for extra 195 and 331 carriages, but hopefully we'll get some clarification soon.

Either way, I think it's great to hear there's an option for additional carriages available.

It may be for additional DMU's that are potentially required later in the franchise but of course as its an option they may go for cascaded DMU's instead if they can get hold of them

They look OK certainly a significant improvement over most of Northern's current stock which of course isn't difficult and in the case of the 195's a damn site better than the D230's which some people wanted to dump onto Northern.

Message to Vivarail this is a definition of a 'New Train'

 

[sprinterguy]

Hopeless window alignment.

A huge improvement on the state of affairs in a typical 150. In the case of the CAF units, the pillars are thin, the windows are large and the layout quite open plan: I can't imagine anyone really having a problem with the seating layout.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I wonder if they are the optional extra vehicles which are mentioned in the first paragraph are. It would be good if the options are for extra 195 and 331 carriages, but hopefully we'll get some clarification soon.

They say further down (seventh paragraph) that the 4-car EMUs can be extended to 5-car if needed.

 

[47802]

They say further down (seventh paragraph) that the 4-car EMUs can be extended to 5-car if needed.

But they also say the add on options have not been disclosed so that may one possibility among others

 

[Bletchleyite]

But they also say the add on options have not been disclosed so that may one possibility among others

At the moment an add-on of more DMUs would probably make more sense. Or extending the 2s to 3 or 4 so they can run alone rather than paired up.

 

[Chrisyd]

Apologies if this has been covered else where, but looking at the photos are the carriages "walk through" like a Class 700/345 rather than with doors at each end?

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Apologies if this has been covered else where, but looking at the photos are the carriages "walk through" like a Class 700/345 rather than with doors at each end?

Here's hoping! Might be a bit echoing and empty on lighter-used bits of the network but the guard will have excellent views of what's going on and improved social safety, etc.

A much brighter, more open environment. I must say I'm quite impressed with these - although they'll probably still be hopeless rammed at peak which might detract from that somewhat...

 

[Bletchleyite]

A much brighter, more open environment. I must say I'm quite impressed with these - although they'll probably still be hopeless rammed at peak which might detract from that somewhat...

I'd imagine that will be less of a problem on EMU services, as with the electrification changes there are relatively too many EMUs and too few DMUs. Unless they agree to swap some of the order from one to the other, which is a distinct possibility as they are the same bodyshells and interiors.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

I'd imagine that will be less of a problem on EMU services, as with the electrification changes there are relatively too many EMUs and too few DMUs. Unless they agree to swap some of the order from one to the other, which is a distinct possibility as they are the same bodyshells and interiors.

Fair point - I meant to say my post applied to both the 195 and the 331 - as you say, the interiors and bodyshells are very similar, although I imagine there are quite a few differences underneath!

As for an EMU surfeit, I still think there will be problems with overcrowding. A lot of demand is currently unable to board the rammed 333/321 services in West Yorkshire for example - I think the extension to 2×3 car 331 service (up from 4 car 333) will be an improvement but only barely account for current use - any further growth will be a problem, as the platforms are at max length and trains more or less as frequent as they can be at peak given the track layout. I suspect they'll get very busy not long after introduction!

The EMU surplus won't be frightfully useful as there is still no space for them! Getting the crayons out, they could be very useful if you electrified the Calder Valley mind...

 

[Mordac]

Are those seats the same as CAF put on the Northern Ireland class 3000s?

 

[superalbs]

Are those seats the same as CAF put on the Northern Ireland class 3000s?

Nope, that seat is quite similar to what we have on the Class 333s (I think).

The Class 331s have ironing boards on steroids.

 

[Starmill]

A huge improvement on the state of affairs in a typical 150.

Definitely - same goes for a 319.

 

[pemma]

I suspect they'll get very busy not long after introduction!

Under DfT standing guidelines you'll need more than 760 passengers on board a pair of 3 car 331s, or passengers standing for more than 20 minutes at peak times before the pairs of 331s are classed as full.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I do wonder if the 323s with their high-density layout would be a better fit for the peak Skipton services than the 331s with tables and so on. Guess the 331s will be rather pleasant outside of the peaks though. Think I just like the idea of the 323s coming "home" to Leeds!

 

[xotGD]

I do wonder if the 323s with their high-density layout would be a better fit for the peak Skipton services than the 331s with tables and so on. Guess the 331s will be rather pleasant outside of the peaks though. Think I just like the idea of the 323s coming "home" to Leeds!

323s??? Hardly an upgrade from 333s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

323s??? Hardly an upgrade from 333s.

Apart from a 6x323 being 1.5x the length of a 333- the same as is provided by 2x331 (assuming 23m vehicles on the CAF units, though I've not seen measurements). However the 323 has 3+2 seating and no tables, unlike the 331s, so offers greater capacity for a similar length formation.
The interior of the 331s looks very nice, but I'm not sure it's appropriate for Skipton to Leeds- especially at peak times.

 

[pemma]

Apart from a 6x323 being 1.5x the length of a 333- the same as is provided by 2x331 (assuming 23m vehicles on the CAF units, though I've not seen measurements).

The 3 car sets will be 71.4m long (so 142.8m for a pair of them), the 333s are 94.2m long.

 

[driver_m]

Based at Allerton..will they be used on any actual Liverpool services? Or just purely ECS around there?