Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

[D365]

The original plan as I understand was for 3 car 331s to work in West Yorkshire replacing the 321/322s, with some doubling up in the peaks on the Aire route. However due to lack of platform capacity, the 4 car units have been sent in the meantime. Whether or not the Aire line will ever see 6 car workings is anyone's guess, but if I were a betting man I'd say that ship has sailed.

Does that mean Manchester will end up with not enough 4 car units? Especially after they receive the WMT 323s.

 

[Bantamzen]

Does that mean Manchester will end up with not enough 4 car units? Especially after they receive the WMT 323s.

I've no idea to be honest.

 

[superkev]

Does that mean Manchester will end up with not enough 4 car units? Especially after they receive the WMT 323s.

With the vocal Andy Burnham looking over Northerns shoulder I suspect Leeds will never get the promised 3 cars to make 6 car units on the Aire Valley.
Non completion of Leeds platform zero which is the excuse given as to why 6 cars cant be run on the Aire Valley is not scheduled to be complete till mid 2021 which means it will have taken about the same time as the original ECML to York (3 years).
K

 

[childwallblues]

Does that mean Manchester will end up with not enough 4 car units? Especially after they receive the WMT 323s.

Currently there are at least 2 x 4 Class 331 operating on Liverpool-Wigan/Blackpool North services each day.

 

[J-2739]

The original plan as I understand was for 3 car 331s to work in West Yorkshire replacing the 321/322s, with some doubling up in the peaks on the Aire route. However due to lack of platform capacity, the 4 car units have been sent in the meantime. Whether or not the Aire line will ever see 6 car workings is anyone's guess, but if I were a betting man I'd say that ship has sailed.

So what you're implying is that after a mass amount of time and money has been spent on increasing platform capacity to accommodate 2x331/0s at Leeds for increased passenger capacity, said units may possibly never come to the east side to help out with, as I've heard on this forum, regular overcrowding on the Aire/Wharfe routes? Because that would be a sad shame.

How will 4 car units remain sustainable in the foreseeable future?

 

[Purple Orange]

So what you're implying is that after a mass amount of time and money has been spent on increasing platform capacity to accommodate 2x331/0s at Leeds for increased passenger capacity, said units may possibly never come to the east side to help out with, as I've heard on this forum, regular overcrowding on the Aire/Wharfe routes? Because that would be a sad shame.

How will 4 car units remain sustainable in the foreseeable future?

I find this perplexing. This issue assumes that Northern was always going to have a capacity problem following introduction of the 331s on either the east or west side. Because if the east is to have less capacity than planned, it implies that the west will have more capacity than planned following introduction. Yet I can’t see how the west side will struggle to fill 6 car trains.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I find this perplexing. This issue assumes that Northern was always going to have a capacity problem following introduction of the 331s on either the east or west side. Because if the east is to have less capacity than planned, it implies that the west will have more capacity than planned following introduction. Yet I can’t see how the west side will struggle to fill 6 car trains.

I don't think that is true. I believe the 331s are being used on more services than they were originally intended so the west side hasn't got more capacity. I don't think originally Leeds - Doncaster, Liverpool - Wigan (and possibly Blackpool services as well) or Liverpool - Warrington and Crewe were slated as receiving 331s. Also on the west several 319s have been sent to store which was definitely not in any original plan.

 

[Purple Orange]

I don't think that is true. I believe the 331s are being used on more services than they were originally intended so the west side hasn't got more capacity. I don't think originally Leeds - Doncaster, Liverpool - Wigan (and possibly Blackpool services as well) or Liverpool - Warrington and Crewe were slated as receiving 331s. Also on the west several 319s have been sent to store which was definitely not in any original plan.

But the 323s are being retained and bolstered by those from the west mids. Also the unicorn **** that is the bi-mode 319s were not in the original plan either.

 

[ic31420]

The 331 planned swap across the Pennines could get interesting should Northern be split into east/west franchises.

I wonder if the West will lose the lion's share of the new stock like FNW lost the 175s

 

[Llama]

The 195 shed which is (very) slowly taking shape on Newton Heath would make one think that if things were split the 195s would surely still be based at NH, although there'd be nothing to stop East drivers learning NH to bring them on and off I suppose.

 

[Bantamzen]

So what you're implying is that after a mass amount of time and money has been spent on increasing platform capacity to accommodate 2x331/0s at Leeds for increased passenger capacity, said units may possibly never come to the east side to help out with, as I've heard on this forum, regular overcrowding on the Aire/Wharfe routes? Because that would be a sad shame.

How will 4 car units remain sustainable in the foreseeable future?

P0 at Leeds isn't just about capacity for 2*331 formations, with the Harrogate line now operating at 4tph & more LNER services planned for Harrogate & Bradford, capacity in the Western bays is maxed out. So the new platform gives additional capcity as well as allowing parallel moves to/from P1-3 which were not previously possible. What isn't happening is any attempt to lengthen platforms along the Aire or Wharfe routes. Now this isn't vital, as technically SDO could be used, but this would be problematic with the non-gangwayed 331s, at least initially until passengers got used to knowing which of the units to sit in. But the fact that the lengthening work isn't taking place, and that 2*331 formations are starting to happen in the west part of the network suggests to me that this has been ditched for the Aire peaks. And if the franchise gets split as has been suggested, then we can kiss goodbye to any such aspiration in the future.

 

[superkev]

P0 at Leeds isn't just about capacity for 2*331 formations, with the Harrogate line now operating at 4tph & more LNER services planned for Harrogate & Bradford, capacity in the Western bays is maxed out. So the new platform gives additional capcity as well as allowing parallel moves to/from P1-3 which were not previously possible. What isn't happening is any attempt to lengthen platforms along the Aire or Wharfe routes. Now this isn't vital, as technically SDO could be used, but this would be problematic with the non-gangwayed 331s, at least initially until passengers got used to knowing which of the units to sit in. But the fact that the lengthening work isn't taking place, and that 2*331 formations are starting to happen in the west part of the network suggests to me that this has been ditched for the Aire peaks. And if the franchise gets split as has been suggested, then we can kiss goodbye to any such aspiration in the future.

Yes as I said with Andy Burnham being a fair bit more vocal than the east side lot I'm sure the west side will get the best deal in any future reorganisation. Also I hear as part of the Platform zero works the new crossover has now shortened two of the existing platforms (1 and 2 I think).
K

 

[childwallblues]

I don't think that is true. I believe the 331s are being used on more services than they were originally intended so the west side hasn't got more capacity. I don't think originally Leeds - Doncaster, Liverpool - Wigan (and possibly Blackpool services as well) or Liverpool - Warrington and Crewe were slated as receiving 331s. Also on the west several 319s have been sent to store which was definitely not in any original plan.

You are probably right but the loss of the 319s has brought in the 331s both 331/0 and 331/1 varities as their replacements on local routes out of Liverpool.

 

[northernchris]

Yes as I said with Andy Burnham being a fair bit more vocal than the east side lot I'm sure the west side will get the best deal in any future reorganisation. Also I hear as part of the Platform zero works the new crossover has now shortened two of the existing platforms (1 and 2 I think).
K

Platform 1 is being partly dismantled this month, not sure about platform 2, but there will be a temporary reduction in platforms whilst platform 0 is under construction.

 

[Greybeard33]

But the 323s are being retained and bolstered by those from the west mids. Also the unicorn **** that is the bi-mode 319s were not in the original plan either.

IIRC, Northern's original rolling stock plan envisaged that 12 of the 331/0 3-cars would go to the east side to replace the 4-car 321s and 322s and enable doubling of some services. That would have left the west side with the remaining 19x331/0s and the 12x4-car 331/1s. Plus 27x4-car 319s, which Northern intended to keep until the end of the franchise, with all the 323s going off lease. So a total fleet of 58 EMUs on the west side.

But that fleet included 3x331/0s for Windermere services, now being worked by 195s, and 5x319s for Wigan to Alderley Edge and Stalybridge services, now being worked by DMUs (plus the 769s when they appear). So, for the current west side electrified network, Northern's original plan allocated 16x331/0s, 12x331/1s and 22x319s - total 50 units, 16x3-car and 34x4-car.

Now Northern is getting rid of all the 319s but retaining 17x3-car 323s and acquiring another 17x323s from WMT. So, assuming that the east side will eventually get the 12x331/0s as originally planned, the west will have 34x323s, 19x331/0s and 12x331/1s - total 65 units, 53x3-car and 12x4-car.

The conclusion must be that the intention is now to run many more 6-car double formations (2x323 and 2x331/0) on routes that would have got single 4-cars under the original plan.

 

[Bovverboy]

IIRC, Northern's original rolling stock plan envisaged that 12 of the 331/0 3-cars would go to the east side to replace the 4-car 321s and 322s and enable doubling of some services. That would have left the west side with the remaining 19x331/0s and the 12x4-car 331/1s. Plus 27x4-car 319s, which Northern intended to keep until the end of the franchise, with all the 323s going off lease. So a total fleet of 58 EMUs on the west side.

But that fleet included 3x331/0s for Windermere services, now being worked by 195s, and 5x319s for Wigan to Alderley Edge and Stalybridge services, now being worked by DMUs (plus the 769s when they appear). So, for the current west side electrified network, Northern's original plan allocated 16x331/0s, 12x331/1s and 22x319s - total 50 units, 16x3-car and 34x4-car.

Now Northern is getting rid of all the 319s but retaining 17x3-car 323s and acquiring another 17x323s from WMT. So, assuming that the east side will eventually get the 12x331/0s as originally planned, the west will have 34x323s, 19x331/0s and 12x331/1s - total 68 units, 54x3-car and 12x4-car.

I make 34 + 19 + 12 to total 65, 53 3-car and 12 4-car.

The conclusion must be that the intention is now to run many more 6-car double formations (2x323 and 2x331/0) on routes that would have got single 4-cars under the original plan.

But seven sets will need to reduce from 4-car to 3-car, since there won't be sufficient 3-car sets available to replace 22 4-car sets by 6-car.

 

[Greybeard33]

I make 34 + 19 + 12 to total 65, 53 3-car and 12 4-car.

Oops! Arithmetic corrected in OP.

But seven sets will need to reduce from 4-car to 3-car, since there won't be sufficient 3-car sets available to replace 22 4-car sets by 6-car.

Indeed, but hopefully solo 3-cars will be used on the diagrams that do not really need 4-car capacity. And a 70m 323 or 71m 331/0 does not have much less passenger accommodation than a 80m 319, after subtracting the wasted space of the third inter-car gap in the latter.

 

[Deerfold]

Oops! Arithmetic corrected in OP.

Indeed, but hopefully solo 3-cars will be used on the diagrams that do not really need 4-car capacity. And a 70m 323 or 71m 331/0 does not have much less passenger accommodation than a 80m 319, after subtracting the wasted space of the third inter-car gap in the latter.

If they expect large numbers of people to stand on 331s why are there so few things to hold on to? I nearly fell several times after getting one at peak time out of Leeds.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Currently there are at least 2 x 4 Class 331 operating on Liverpool-Wigan/Blackpool North services each day.

There was a 2-car 150 on a Blackpool-Liverpool service today, just to remind us of times not so very long ago.
But quite a few 331s and the odd 319, and no cancellations that I noticed.

 

[Purple Orange]

Oops! Arithmetic corrected in OP.

Indeed, but hopefully solo 3-cars will be used on the diagrams that do not really need 4-car capacity. And a 70m 323 or 71m 331/0 does not have much less passenger accommodation than a 80m 319, after subtracting the wasted space of the third inter-car gap in the latter.

Thanks for the detailed responses. Next time I am squeezing on to a 2-car service, I will try to remind myself that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Bovverboy]

But seven sets will need to reduce from 4-car to 3-car, since there won't be sufficient 3-car sets available to replace 22 4-car sets by 6-car.

Indeed, but hopefully solo 3-cars will be used on the diagrams that do not really need 4-car capacity.

Yes, but the seven sets which will be required to drop from 4-car to 3-car, are, of course, additional to the four sets which were going to remain 3-car throughout.

EDIT: Sixteen amended to ten. Even on the original proposals, there was scope for 12 3-car sets to be doubled up to make 6-car sets.

EDIT 2: Ten further amended to four.

 

[Greybeard33]

Yes, but the seven sets which will be required to drop from 4-car to 3-car, are, of course, additional to the sixteen sets which were going to remain 3-car throughout.

Can you estimate the total daily turnout (sets not units) required for all the electric diagrams on the west side, assuming the timetable remains pretty much as now?

 

[Bovverboy]

Can you estimate the total daily turnout (sets not units) required for all the electric diagrams on the west side, assuming the timetable remains pretty much as now?

I've already amended my previous figures - twice!

I'm pretty sure that, before the 331s arrived, the PVR was 24 x 319 (plus 3 spare) and 15 323 (plus 2 spare). As I can't think of anything that's gone electric or ceased to be electric just recently, it's reasonable to suppose that the total requirement will continue to be 39 sets plus 5 spare.
So on the original plan that equated to 6 six-car sets, 34 four-car sets, and 4 three-car sets. Total sets 44, total units 50. On the revised plan it's 21 six-car sets, 12 four-car sets, and 11 three-car sets. Total sets 44 as before, total units 65. So 15 sets increase from 4-car to six-car, and 7 reduce from 4-car to three-car.

 

[js1000]

Sounds as if there may have been another pair of oversized 331s forming a 7/8 coach service on Blackpool or Preston to Manchester this morning - one unit seemingly locked out of use. Northern should have just ordered more 4 coaches - same with the 195s. Too much co-ordination night before/at the depot for doubled up working to work.

 

[Greybeard33]

So on the original plan that equated to 6 six-car sets, 34 four-car sets, and 4 three-car sets. Total sets 44, total units 50. On the revised plan it's 21 six-car sets, 12 four-car sets, and 11 three-car sets. Total sets 44 as before, total units 65. So 15 sets increase from 4-car to six-car, and 7 reduce from 4-car to three-car.

The ability to deploy 21 six-car sets is dependent on Network Rail lengthening a lot of platforms in the next couple of years, unless the 323s are to be retrofitted with SDO. I do not believe any of the routes yet have all platforms at 6-car length. 19 ASDO-equipped 331/0s could only form about eight 6-car sets after allowing for maintenance.

 

[Phillipimo]

I saw a very shiny 331024 pass Roby today on the 3Z15 1253 Lancaster to Edge Hill Depot. It still had plastic seat covers and CAF window stickers. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C00527/2020-01-08/detailed

It looks like the same unit started on 3Z10 from Edge Hill this morning before shuttling around between Carnforth and Preston for a while.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C00513/2020-01-08/detailed

 

[Halifaxlad]

The ability to deploy 21 six-car sets is dependent on Network Rail lengthening a lot of platforms in the next couple of years, unless the 323s are to be retrofitted with SDO. I do not believe any of the routes yet have all platforms at 6-car length. 19 ASDO-equipped 331/0s could only form about eight 6-car sets after allowing for maintenance.

Most of the Calder Valley Line platforms have now been lengthened to cater for 5 as part of a recent lengthening scheme, this line is also expected to see 6 car trains.

 

[43096]

IIRC, Northern's original rolling stock plan envisaged that 12 of the 331/0 3-cars would go to the east side to replace the 4-car 321s and 322s and enable doubling of some services. That would have left the west side with the remaining 19x331/0s and the 12x4-car 331/1s. Plus 27x4-car 319s, which Northern intended to keep until the end of the franchise, with all the 323s going off lease. So a total fleet of 58 EMUs on the west side.

But that fleet included 3x331/0s for Windermere services, now being worked by 195s, and 5x319s for Wigan to Alderley Edge and Stalybridge services, now being worked by DMUs (plus the 769s when they appear). So, for the current west side electrified network, Northern's original plan allocated 16x331/0s, 12x331/1s and 22x319s - total 50 units, 16x3-car and 34x4-car.

Now Northern is getting rid of all the 319s but retaining 17x3-car 323s and acquiring another 17x323s from WMT. So, assuming that the east side will eventually get the 12x331/0s as originally planned, the west will have 34x323s, 19x331/0s and 12x331/1s - total 65 units, 53x3-car and 12x4-car.

The conclusion must be that the intention is now to run many more 6-car double formations (2x323 and 2x331/0) on routes that would have got single 4-cars under the original plan.

At some point there will have to be a proper fix for the Castlefield corridor problem, which can only mean running fewer, but longer, trains. The retention/addition of the 323s in place of 319s can only help with that as they can be paired up as 6-car formations, as you say.

I expect there will be pressure from Network Rail to do that as the new NR structure is embedded. Don't forget that the NR Central & North West Managing Director (Tim Shoveller) is a proper railway operator with a huge amount of knowledge - he will know what is realistically possible on that stretch.

 

[geoffk]

331s much in evidence on the Blackpool - MIA and Hazel Grove services today, either 3-car or 2x3-car. Also four-car 331.111 worked the 14.01 Piccadilly - Crewe, the first four-car I've seen west of the Pennines.

 

[Llama]

4-car 331s have been out on the west side for a while now.