Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

[43096]

Good point about taking more 323s or even the 365.

No I didn't mean added extra services into Manchester, I think you'll find that the Victoria train currently terminates in Preston so could be extended to Blackpool South.

I wouldn't bother with 365s. Much as I like them, adding another type to Northern isn't a good idea, especially as they are 4 x 20m vehicles when the EMU fleet will be all 23m vehicles of either 3-car (323/331) or 4-car (331/333) types. The 769s are an obvious exception on a "needs must" basis.

Apologies on the Blackpool - joining those services does have some logic, depending on not importing delays into the Manchester area.

 

[superkev]

What's the latest position re 331 (and 195) deliveries. The last report a while back said only 331 031 was outstanding and 030 had been seen on test.
On 195s add on order 3 cars 131, 132, 133 where still awaited with a few of the 2 cars stored.
Thanks
K

 

[158757]

195131 is/was at Edge Hill, as for the 2 cars I believe they're being rotated in and out of use due to reduced diagramming.

 

[Mollman]

I wouldn't bother with 365s. Much as I like them, adding another type to Northern isn't a good idea, especially as they are 4 x 20m vehicles when the EMU fleet will be all 23m vehicles of either 3-car (323/331) or 4-car (331/333) types. The 769s are an obvious exception on a "needs must" basis.

Apologies on the Blackpool - joining those services does have some logic, depending on not importing delays into the Manchester area.

Hadn't even considered different carriage lengths.

No worries, they like playing around with the Preston - Manchester corridor anyway so who know what the service & stopping pattern will be like in a few years.

 

[jonesy3001]

The Last 4 car 331 in the west moves to Skipton today.
37800 and 331105,

Realtime Trains - 541Y 0955 Blackpool North to Skipton Broughton Rd C.S.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Jamesrob637]

The Last 4 car 331 in the west moves to Skipton today.
37800 and 331105,

Realtime Trains - 541Y 0955 Blackpool North to Skipton Broughton Rd C.S.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Could have run under its own power as far as Carnforth!

 

[jonesy3001]

Nope, all the 331/1s have been towed to Skipton

 

[Jamesrob637]

So when Northern finally get back to normal service, are there enough 331s to run all Blackpool to Hazel Grove, Blackpool to Airport and Blackpool to Liverpool as 6-car Mondays to Saturdays?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Nope, all the 331/1s have been towed to Skipton

Yeah I just had a fantasy vision of it running under its own power as far as the end of the platform at Carnforth and the driver shutting it down, walking across, starting up one of the WCR locos in the adjacent sidings and backing on to the unit to tow it up to Skipton!

 

[jonesy3001]

Yeah I just had a fantasy vision of it running under its own power as far as the end of the platform at Carnforth and the driver shutting it down, walking across, starting up one of the WCR locos in the adjacent sidings and backing on to the unit to tow it up to Skipton!

It has happened from Preston.

 

[Kieran1990]

So when Northern finally get back to normal service, are there enough 331s to run all Blackpool to Hazel Grove, Blackpool to Airport and Blackpool to Liverpool as 6-car Mondays to Saturdays?

BPN to the Grove is a 5hr turn (10units)
BPN to the Airport is a 4hr turn (8)
BPN to Lime street is 3hr turn (6)

31 3 car Class 331’s and for all to be doubles it is 24, so very possible with what Northern have.

 

[jonesy3001]

Don't forget the 17 (or is it 26) 323s that will be joining northern and they might be running doubles on the manchester lines.
Crewe to Liverpool
Liverpool to Manchester airport
Piccadilly to stoke

 

[Halish Railway]

BPN to the Grove is a 5hr turn (10units)
BPN to the Airport is a 4hr turn (8)
BPN to Lime street is 3hr turn (6)

31 3 car Class 331’s and for all to be doubles it is 24, so very possible with what Northern have.

I’m unaware of any plans for the Liverpool to Blackpool services to be operated by 2x331/0s, I believe that they were supposed to be operated by 331/1s, however, they’ve all absconded to Neville Hill, so it’s still likely that they’ll be operated by a single 331/0 or even a 319.

How many times before has that route been operated by 2x331s?

Don't forget the 17 (or is it 26) 323s that will be joining northern and they might be running doubles on the manchester lines.
Crewe to Liverpool
Liverpool to Manchester airport
Piccadilly to stoke

Crewe to Liverpool does go via Manchester Airport. The only service from Liverpool that terminates at Manchester Airport is a diesel service via Warrington Central. Plus, AFAIK the Crewe to Liverpool service is inter worked with the Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe via Stockport service.

Piccadilly to Stoke is an interesting one as the bay platform can only accommodate 3 coaches. Before the May 2018 was rewritten, the Blackpool to Hazel Grove service was going to be diverted to Macclesfield to supplement the Stoke services which would go from a 323 to a 331/0, with a half-hourly Piccadilly to Hazel Grove all stations service being created, giving 4tph to Hazel Grove when the Buxton services were taken into account. Obviously at the moment it is only 3tph.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Looks like the 7-car Liverpool to Blackpool is history then. The one time I saw it at Preston it was only 4-car!

 

[CJ]

I’m unaware of any plans for the Liverpool to Blackpool services to be operated by 2x331/0s, I believe that they were supposed to be operated by 331/1s, however, they’ve all absconded to Neville Hill, so it’s still likely that they’ll be operated by a single 331/0 or even a 319.

How many times before has that route been operated by 2x331s?

Crewe to Liverpool does go via Manchester Airport. The only service from Liverpool that terminates at Manchester Airport is a diesel service via Warrington Central. Plus, AFAIK the Crewe to Liverpool service is inter worked with the Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe via Stockport service.

Piccadilly to Stoke is an interesting one as the bay platform can only accommodate 3 coaches. Before the May 2018 was rewritten, the Blackpool to Hazel Grove service was going to be diverted to Macclesfield to supplement the Stoke services which would go from a 323 to a 331/0, with a half-hourly Piccadilly to Hazel Grove all stations service being created, giving 4tph to Hazel Grove when the Buxton services were taken into account. Obviously at the moment it is only 3tph.

Liverpool - Blackpool has been 2 x 331/0 fairly recently (in the last couple months or so).

Liverpool - Crewe does (or did) interwork with the Manchester - Crewe via Stockport service.

Regarding Stoke, there has been 331 crew training in the past, and it looks like the train was occupying the main through platform instead (perhaps they may reverse outside the station and back into the main through platform towards Manchester)?

 

[Journeyman]

This thread is extremely long, so please excuse me if it's been answered already, but...

Who is maintaining the Northern 195s and 331s? Is it Northern themselves, or do CAF have the contract to do it?

 

[ABB125]

Apologies for not reading the whole thread, but am I right in thinking that all the 4car units have moved to Leeds, and all the 3car units are still in the west? If that is the case, why does Leeds need 12 units to replace 8 class 321/322s?
Also, I think all the class 331 services I saw in Blackpool today were pairs of 3cars. Is this the long term plan, or just due to the current situation?
What other services do the class 331s operate in the west? And so what does this mean the class 319/323s work? (Off topic, sorry!)
Many thanks

 

[jonesy3001]

Apologies for not reading the whole thread, but am I right in thinking that all the 4car units have moved to Leeds, and all the 3car units are still in the west? If that is the case, why does Leeds need 12 units to replace 8 class 321/322s?
Also, I think all the class 331 services I saw in Blackpool today were pairs of 3cars. Is this the long term plan, or just due to the current situation?
What other services do the class 331s operate in the west? And so what does this mean the class 319/323s work? (Off topic, sorry!)
Many thanks

323s will stick to their normal routes, the 319s will be replaced in a couple of years by 17 WMT 323s anyway.

 

[Halish Railway]

Apologies for not reading the whole thread, but am I right in thinking that all the 4car units have moved to Leeds, and all the 3car units are still in the west? If that is the case, why does Leeds need 12 units to replace 8 class 321/322s?
Also, I think all the class 331 services I saw in Blackpool today were pairs of 3cars. Is this the long term plan, or just due to the current situation?
What other services do the class 331s operate in the west? And so what does this mean the class 319/323s work? (Off topic, sorry!)
Many thanks

I don’t know why they have allocated all twelve 331/1s to Neville Hill, however, it’s worth noting that they will transfer west in exchange for some 331/0s to be operated in pairs once Leeds’ platform 0 is completed. I seem to remember 16 being the number of units which will be enough to cover all off-peak Leeds to Skipton and Ilkley diagrams if they became self-contained, though it’s worth noting that little has been confirmed regarding the 331/0s use in Yorkshire.

As for the western side, pairs of 331/0s are likely to be a staple on Blackpool North to Hazel Grove/Manchester Airport services for the foreseeable future. Once the 331/1s have moved west, they will mainly be used on routes that have historically been operated by 319s and 323s - Hadfield services were mentioned in the original franchise commitment.

 

[ABB125]

323s will stick to their normal routes, the 319s will be replaced in a couple of years by 17 WMT 323s anyway.

I don’t know why they have allocated all twelve 331/1s to Neville Hill, however, it’s worth noting that they will transfer west in exchange for some 331/0s to be operated in pairs once Leeds’ platform 0 is completed. I seem to remember 16 being the number of units which will be enough to cover all off-peak Leeds to Skipton and Ilkley diagrams if they became self-contained, though it’s worth noting that little has been confirmed regarding the 331/0s use in Yorkshire.

As for the western side, pairs of 331/0s are likely to be a staple on Blackpool North to Hazel Grove/Manchester Airport services for the foreseeable future. Once the 331/1s have moved west, they will mainly be used on routes that have historically been operated by 319s and 323s - Hadfield services were mentioned in the original franchise commitment.

Thanks both

 

[jonesy3001]

Thanks both

A 323 has been spotted at Victoria this evening on either a diversion or traction training.

 

[Bow Fell]

They aren’t cleared (yet) so possibly a gauging run/paperwork exercise.

 

[jonesy3001]

They aren’t cleared (yet) so possibly a gauging run/paperwork exercise.

It was a diverted route, supposed to have gone to oxford rd

 

[Bow Fell]

It was a diverted route, supposed to have gone to oxford rd

Amazing what can be done during disruption!

According to the Sectional Appendix they weren’t cleared when I last checked!

 

[jonesy3001]

Amazing what can be done during disruption!

According to the Sectional Appendix they weren’t cleared when I last checked!

2F37, 323226

 

[Geeves]

Guess what it fits, just like the 195 that went to Kirkby and the 142 that apparently couldnt run to Clitheroe for 20 years but then suddenly by magic it could!

 

[Mordac]

Remember, it's only out of gauge once!

 

[Chorley Cake]

Any sign of 031 yet ? Has it been delivered ?

 

[thealexweb]

2F37, 323226

Also pictures of it on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/pauljcobbe/status/1288205697654628359?s=21

 

[Jamesrob637]

The 331s have revolutionized travel from South Manchester to the Fylde Coast.

2016: 2-car 150 (whether booked only 2 or short-formed I can't remember): no air-conditioning on a hot August Bank Holiday Friday.
2020: 6-car 331 for the most part regardless of season. Air-conditioning or heating to suit and soo much more capacity.