• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

darylyates17

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2015
Messages
232
Location
St Helens
Was on 331008 on a LIV-BPN from St Helens to Preston they have some acceleration and got up to speed very quickly, other than that they unsurprisingly feel similar to the 195s but I will need more rides on both before I can judge my true opinions on them.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

oscarthecat92

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2016
Messages
42
I'm concerned about the lack of seating on them for the Airedale Services. Very low density intercity style seating with big door areas for standing but nothing to hold onto so wasted space. Why weren't they specified with higher density seating and grab rails in the door areas?
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,087
I'm concerned about the lack of seating on them for the Airedale Services. Very low density intercity style seating with big door areas for standing but nothing to hold onto so wasted space. Why weren't they specified with higher density seating and grab rails in the door areas?
We're supposed to have 6 car sets, which would have plenty of seats. Unfortunately the infrastructure isn't quite ready.

I'll be slightly miffed if I end up standing on 331s rather than sitting on 333s!
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,672
Location
Another planet...
I'm concerned about the lack of seating on them for the Airedale Services. Very low density intercity style seating with big door areas for standing but nothing to hold onto so wasted space. Why weren't they specified with higher density seating and grab rails in the door areas?
Agree with this, the 323s would be a better fit (though those travelling from Ilkley and Skipton may disagree, as they'll no doubt enjoy the tables until Shipley folk are forced to sit on them!).
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,672
Location
Another planet...
Don't you mean 333s
No, I mean 323s: 3-car high-density units running in pairs would be more suited to the triangle services than the low-density 331s. 323s were the original plan for the Airedale electrification until the funding was cut and 308s came instead. Had the original plan been stuck to, the Hunslet TPL factory in Leeds (not far from where the 333s are being refreshed) would have lasted a little while longer.
 

superkev

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2015
Messages
2,686
Location
west yorkshire
No, I mean 323s: 3-car high-density units running in pairs would be more suited to the triangle services than the low-density 331s. 323s were the original plan for the Airedale electrification until the funding was cut and 308s came instead. Had the original plan been stuck to, the Hunslet TPL factory in Leeds (not far from where the 333s are being refreshed) would have lasted a little while longer.
Surely 6 car 323s still would not fit the short platforms any better than 6 car 331s. The 331s also have the benefit of ASDO.
Perhaps someone could enlighten us as to why platform 0 at leeds was Graylinged (paused) and why it takes so long for Network fail to build such a simple structure.
K
 

oscarthecat92

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2016
Messages
42
Agree with this, the 323s would be a better fit (though those travelling from Ilkley and Skipton may disagree, as they'll no doubt enjoy the tables until Shipley folk are forced to sit on them!).

According to Wiki 6x331 is 408 seats which is only 48 more that a 4 coach 333 (360 seats), due to the low density of the seating. There are definitely more than 48 standing on some of the rush hour Airedale services. Still can't understand why they've gone with an intercity style layout for a commuter rail service. The lack of anything to hold onto in the massive door areas is also a big own goal
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,672
Location
Another planet...
Surely 6 car 323s still would not fit the short platforms any better than 6 car 331s. The 331s also have the benefit of ASDO.
Perhaps someone could enlighten us as to why platform 0 at leeds was Graylinged (paused) and why it takes so long for Network fail to build such a simple structure.
K
Just extend the platforms then. SDO is all well and good at the extremities of the Cornish main line, but on a busy route like Airedale it'll only end up leading to ridiculous dwell-times while everyone in the last two coaches shuffles down. It's not as if 6x23m is that long in the grand scheme of things.
 

Britannia94

Member
Joined
12 Sep 2019
Messages
33
Location
York
Only issue with extending the platforms is Shipley. Platform 1 & 4 is doable but I dont think 2& 5 could be done. Platform 3 is obviously already lengthened to accommodate the london trains.

As for seating on 331, I noticed that other day when I was on board the lack of seating and grab rails.
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,491
Location
Yorkshire
According to Wiki 6x331 is 408 seats which is only 48 more that a 4 coach 333 (360 seats), due to the low density of the seating. There are definitely more than 48 standing on some of the rush hour Airedale services. Still can't understand why they've gone with an intercity style layout for a commuter rail service. The lack of anything to hold onto in the massive door areas is also a big own goal
Because it’s cheaper and easier to build a one size fits nothing train.

Intercity seating layout is fine for Blackpool or Nottingham services until you notice the lack of large capacity luggage racks as they are also built for commuter routes with stand back areas in the doorways where the luggage racks should go for long distance services.

These units were built to one design for many different purposes so were never going to be entirely suitable for whichever route they’re running on.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,736
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
No, I mean 323s: 3-car high-density units running in pairs would be more suited to the triangle services than the low-density 331s. 323s were the original plan for the Airedale electrification until the funding was cut and 308s came instead. Had the original plan been stuck to, the Hunslet TPL factory in Leeds (not far from where the 333s are being refreshed) would have lasted a little while longer.

However it might well have led to there being only 3 car units instead of four, as the production line would not have lasted long enough to see any fourth carriages being built. So the lines would have ended up with less capacity, which could easily have put the skids under projects like Apperley Bridge & Kirkstall Forge.

According to Wiki 6x331 is 408 seats which is only 48 more that a 4 coach 333 (360 seats), due to the low density of the seating. There are definitely more than 48 standing on some of the rush hour Airedale services. Still can't understand why they've gone with an intercity style layout for a commuter rail service. The lack of anything to hold onto in the massive door areas is also a big own goal

Some of the platforms along the Aire & Wharfe can only just about fit a 333, and don't have an extra 48m to spare. So without SDO, the 323s in multiple are a no go.

Just extend the platforms then. SDO is all well and good at the extremities of the Cornish main line, but on a busy route like Airedale it'll only end up leading to ridiculous dwell-times while everyone in the last two coaches shuffles down. It's not as if 6x23m is that long in the grand scheme of things.

We've been waiting a very long time for this. There are some platforms that will be a challenge to make long enough for 6 car 331s, but sadly neither the will nor the money seems to be forthcoming. It may well be that for the time being that extra peak paths may have to be sought, to at least get a couple more commuter runs up the Aire at least until such time as someone puts 2 & 2 together to make for longer platforms (see what I did there). However the 321/322s need replacing one way or another, they have become increasingly unreliable in the last couple of years, and most of us would rather stand for a little while & get home on time than face cancellations, or worse being stuck on a failed 321/322 for hours.

Edit: Its probably also worth mentioning that the 331s are only replacing the 321/322s, not 333s. So while there is a loss in seats, it's only around 25 (309 for a 321/9 as opposed to 284 for a 331/1) so other than the busiest periods, it won't actually make a huge difference, especially as on many morning services people often ignore the middle seats.
 
Last edited:

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
Went on one of these over the weekend and whilst sat outside Leyland for its path down into liverpool I was very impressed with the acceleration - much better than the 319s for sure. Very nice trains overall in my eyes. nice interior too
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,692
Just had my first ride on a 331 (not ridden 195 either) from keighley to Shipley. Used it and changed to Leeds service there.

Really impressed, interior atmosphere, seats comfy for time I was sat, PIS did not feel as intrusive as on 333s. Acceleration felt rapid! Although I like the refurb on the 333 which I am on now the 331 is definitely a step up.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,736
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
I finally caught a 331 on a triangle service this afternoon (331 109 for reference), and they seem perfectly happy bombing up the Aire valley from Leeds although being an Ilkley service we slowed for Apperley Junction instead of getting the full speed heading for Apperley Bridge. Still all seemed to work well, and the tables proved popular for a couple of laptop users who boarded, so I'm going to say they will generally be well received. PIS was operational and accurate at least to Menston, and no issues with the doors that I could see. However I did note that whilst standing at Leeds the doors do automatically close after a period of time, although this can be cancelled it seems by pressing the release button. This might confuse a few folk, but the time from the hustle alarm to the doors closing is more than enough not to cause problems. Just happy to finally see & ride one on home turf!!
 
Last edited:

quantinghome

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Messages
2,264
Perhaps someone could enlighten us as to why platform 0 at leeds was Graylinged (paused) and why it takes so long for Network fail to build such a simple structure.
I don't know why it was paused but regarding the time taken I can only imagine there are either significant complexities (e.g. utilities) which are not immediately obvious to the casual observer, or the platform structure itself doesn't lie on the critical path of the project which involves quite a bit of track remodelling.
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,636
Location
Yorkshire
We're supposed to have 6 car sets, which would have plenty of seats. Unfortunately the infrastructure isn't quite ready.

I'll be slightly miffed if I end up standing on 331s rather than sitting on 333s!

At peak times.

I'm wondering if Northern will class the 2320 Leeds - Skipton on a Saturday night as a peak service? It can be quite a squeeze at the moment.
 

superkev

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2015
Messages
2,686
Location
west yorkshire
I don't know why it was paused but regarding the time taken I can only imagine there are either significant complexities (e.g. utilities) which are not immediately obvious to the casual observer, or the platform structure itself doesn't lie on the critical path of the project which involves quite a bit of track remodelling.
I've never understood why Network Rail can take months or even years to build platforms. 6 months at Sowerby bridge for just 10m.
Anyway does anyone have an end date for platform 0 on which I actually saw a couple of guys working the other day. My guess perhaps early 2021.
K
 

PomWombat

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2018
Messages
116
I'd agree - the critical path probably involves the parts related to the new track layout - the track itself, new track circuits, signalling, rerouting the overhead wires to match and the lengthening of some of the other platforms. All on a live railway.

Platform zero itself ought to be a piece of cake.

Presumably they'll be setting up the track layout ready for when they add even more platforms over the car park.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,672
Location
Another planet...
I'd agree - the critical path probably involves the parts related to the new track layout - the track itself, new track circuits, signalling, rerouting the overhead wires to match and the lengthening of some of the other platforms. All on a live railway.

Platform zero itself ought to be a piece of cake.

Presumably they'll be setting up the track layout ready for when they add even more platforms over the car park.
Platforms -1 and -2, coming in 2035! :lol:
 

ohgoditsjames

Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
379
Location
Sheffield & Shipley
First time on a 331 today from Leeds to Shipley I can say that I was impressed. Comfortable ride, fast acceleration and a decent atmosphere.

However I’m concerned about the lower density seating and lack of handles to hold onto by the doors is going to cause quite an issue. The Airedale and Wharfedale lines get extremely busy at peak times, the high density 333’s struggle to cope.

There’s been a number of times where I’ve been pressed flat against the doors with everyone jammed in like sardines on the 333’s, if the 333’s can’t cope then it will certainly be even worse on the 331’s.

I hope a solution is found for the platform lengths at Shipley, 6 car 331’s would definitely be helpful, 48 extra seats might not be a huge increase but there’d be a significant increase in standing space, assuming they add handles anyway.

I will say this however, it’s nice to have the 333’s and 331’s working these lines, I think they’re both great trains.
 

northernchris

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2011
Messages
1,509
There’s been a number of times where I’ve been pressed flat against the doors with everyone jammed in like sardines on the 333’s, if the 333’s can’t cope then it will certainly be even worse on the 331’s.

The lack of grabrails in the doorways is an own goal. However the 333s narrow aisles encourage standees to congregate in the doorways whereas hopefully they will be more willing to use the length of the train on the 331s especially as they have handles on the seats to grip.

It would be useful if there was an official capacity loading for both the 331s and 333s to see how they compare
 

PomWombat

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2018
Messages
116
It would be useful if there was an official capacity loading for both the 331s and 333s to see how they compare

The Northern Franchise agreement has these numbers:
331 = 284 seats + 185 standing = 469.
333 = 360 seats + 107 standing = 467 (before refurb)
333 = 301 seats + 257 standing = 558 (after refurb)
321 = 289 seats + 120 standing = 409 (before refurb)
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,672
Location
Another planet...
Only issue with extending the platforms is Shipley. Platform 1 & 4 is doable but I dont think 2& 5 could be done. Platform 3 is obviously already lengthened to accommodate the london trains.

As for seating on 331, I noticed that other day when I was on board the lack of seating and grab rails.
The previous word on Shipley (from around 2008 iirc) was that the problem platforms (2 in particular, but also 5) could be extended to take 6x23m but only just, and anything greater than that would need significant changes to the track work around the triangle, or would foul the junctions in addition to needing SDO.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,672
Location
Another planet...
The Northern Franchise agreement has these numbers:
331 = 284 seats + 185 standing = 469.
333 = 360 seats + 107 standing = 467 (before refurb)
333 = 301 seats + 257 standing = 558 (after refurb)
321 = 289 seats + 120 standing = 409 (before refurb)
Is that reduction in seating on 333s based on the aborted plan to remove some seats from the driving vehicles to give a more "metro" style interior?

As they're not having seats removed to allow for a bigger toilet (as they already have one) such a large reduction in seats seems anomalous.
 

ASharpe

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2013
Messages
1,000
Location
West Yorkshire
Is that reduction in seating on 333s based on the aborted plan to remove some seats from the driving vehicles to give a more "metro" style interior?

As they're not having seats removed to allow for a bigger toilet (as they already have one) such a large reduction in seats seems anomalous.

From the franchise agreement

16 Class 333 units shall have two vehicles modified in a “metro style” configuration (32 vehicles in total) to increase passenger carrying capacity per unit by at least 19%

I think the 107 standing on a 333 is massively under what they typically carry between Shipley and Leeds with the peak flows.

I caught the 1626 Leeds to Skipton today and it was packed. Acceleration out of Leeds was smoother than my first few trips. but a few people lost balance during the running break test and when stopping at Shipley.
 

PomWombat

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2018
Messages
116
But there are only 16 333s, so they had planned to change all of them.
If they've aborted that, and the loos are already PRM-friendly, then I guess the starting figures apply.

Is 107 standing a low figure? Could be - the same document puts 132 as the standing room on a 3-carriage class 170, which works out as around 20 people standing at each entrance, plus 10 more around the larger loo. From experience, I'd say that was a comfortably-full figure, but that crush loading can be a bit higher.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,692
First time on a 331 today from Leeds to Shipley I can say that I was impressed. Comfortable ride, fast acceleration and a decent atmosphere.

However I’m concerned about the lower density seating and lack of handles to hold onto by the doors is going to cause quite an issue. The Airedale and Wharfedale lines get extremely busy at peak times, the high density 333’s struggle to cope.

There’s been a number of times where I’ve been pressed flat against the doors with everyone jammed in like sardines on the 333’s, if the 333’s can’t cope then it will certainly be even worse on the 331’s.

I hope a solution is found for the platform lengths at Shipley, 6 car 331’s would definitely be helpful, 48 extra seats might not be a huge increase but there’d be a significant increase in standing space, assuming they add handles anyway.

I will say this however, it’s nice to have the 333’s and 331’s working these lines, I think they’re both great trains.

They are only replacing 321\322s at the moment so hopefully it will still match capacity wise.

As you say, hopefully they can run 6 cars as previously planned.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,736
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
They are only replacing 321\322s at the moment so hopefully it will still match capacity wise.

As you say, hopefully they can run 6 cars as previously planned.

Correct, the 331s are replacing 321/322s as you say, and are only replacing the diagrams that the aforementioned units regularly work. Once / If the platform work gets done, then the 331/0s can potentially move over and take up some 333 diagrams. There is not going to be a massive loss of capacity, and once bedded in the 331s will be far more reliable than the 321/322s. If anyone is really worried how a 331 work cope on a peak working, firstly try a 321/322, you won't find me on them mind, I avoid those workings like the plague.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top