Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

[samuelmorris]

Yeah that's pretty much the problem as I see it. Currently with the 321/322/333s guards often have to dispatch from the middle of the units at quite a few of these stations to make sure passengers aren't falling down the gaps. With the 2 car 331 formations I imagine making sure was still the case, and also making sure the SDO has worked properly and not deposited passengers off the edges of the stations would be an even more convoluted process (door release at stations like Shipley can take a little time, often with passengers becoming anxious!). Plus add to the complication, when the 2*331 formations were planned, DOO or a variant thereof was also in the offing. Then came the notorious dispute!

To clarify, by '2 car 331' you mean 2 unit?

 

[Bantamzen]

To clarify, by '2 car 331' you mean 2 unit?

Yes, sorry that's indeed what I meant.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

I didn't realise the plan for 2 x 3car 331s had been binned. That is incredibly disappointing - and hardly the much vaunted capacity increase we were promised. Given the rather unpleasant level of overcrowding at present I guess Northern are going to settle on leaving a few more people on the platform in the morning/evening with the 333s then, unless:

Two of the 321s are off lease 901,902 and 3 333s are not in service. 333 007 is at Holbeck for interior refresh, 009 is at the railways technical centre with serious structural problems and I believe another is stored at Skipton.
There are rumours that the structural problem will take 9 months to repair and may be uneconomic putting in doubt the future of the whole class.
K

Admittedly that is all I have heard about that, but if true.....365s, anyone?

Still not much of a capacity increase mind....

 

[samuelmorris]

I didn't realise the plan for 2 x 3car 331s had been binned. That is incredibly disappointing - and hardly the much vaunted capacity increase we were promised. Given the rather unpleasant level of overcrowding at present I guess Northern are going to settle on leaving a few more people on the platform in the morning/evening with the 333s then, unless:



Admittedly that is all I have heard about that, but if true.....365s, anyone?

Still not much of a capacity increase mind....

The opposite if 365s replace 333s as they're smaller units.

 

[Sleeperwaking]

Well many of the stations can currently only accommodate a 4 car 333 snugly, this was the maximum anticipated length for quite a few of the stations re-instated during the early years of electrification. So as a 4 car 331 is about the same length, these too only just fit quite a few stations, so 2 3car 331s would overhang these by at least 2 cars leaving just one unit + one car in the other unit available to open using SDO. Throw in the nature of a number of these stations, Saltaire & Shipley for example with their sweeping curves, I can foresee the decision to only allow the opening of the doors on the one car fully accommodated on the platforms.

So, to make sure I've read correctly, while what you're saying makes sense, this is your own conclusion - there has not been any official communication from Northern saying that 6-car operation has been binned? Which is where I think I'm getting confused with all this.

 

[Bantamzen]

So, to make sure I've read correctly, while what you're saying makes sense, this is your own conclusion - there has not been any official communication from Northern saying that 6-car operation has been binned? Which is where I think I'm getting confused with all this.

There has been no mention of 6 car operations since the franchise began. However there was talk of extending platforms (not just P0 at Leeds) to accommodate the 6 car operations for a while, but everything has gone quiet, and nothing is mentioned on Network Rail's platform extension program. So make of that what you will.

 

[Sleeperwaking]

There has been no mention of 6 car operations since the franchise began. However there was talk of extending platforms (not just P0 at Leeds) to accommodate the 6 car operations for a while, but everything has gone quiet, and nothing is mentioned on Network Rail's platform extension program. So make of that what you will.

The latest Network Rail Enhancements Delivery Plan on their website (December 2019) still includes "longer train standages on platform 6" as part of Phase 3 of the Leeds Station Capacity Enhancements, Entry Into Service date of Dec 21. The news articles in March 2019 reporting on the 2 year delay to the Leeds platform works generally led with "delay to six carriage trains" as part of the headline, so it has been mentioned since the start of the franchise. It may still be binned, but I have not seen anything official along those lines, and as it's nigh on 2 years until completion of works I can understand why it's low down Northern's list of items to publish updates about.

 

[jamiearmley]

From a train crew point of view, the ASDO is so unreliable, as are the units themselves, that the idea of 6 car with SDO on the NW triangle in the rush hour is fear inducing more than anything else. Hopefully solutions will be found.

 

[samuelmorris]

From a train crew point of view, the ASDO is so unreliable, as are the units themselves, that the idea of 6 car with SDO on the NW triangle in the rush hour is fear inducing more than anything else. Hopefully solutions will be found.

The 331s are exceptionally poor for MTIN which I don't really understand, they're worse than the 195s and haven't really been in service for much less time. The only thing I can think of is that it is faults with things like doors that are the prominent issue and by being longer units and having more doors as a result, they encounter these faults more often.

 

[Bantamzen]

The latest Network Rail Enhancements Delivery Plan on their website (December 2019) still includes "longer train standages on platform 6" as part of Phase 3 of the Leeds Station Capacity Enhancements, Entry Into Service date of Dec 21. The news articles in March 2019 reporting on the 2 year delay to the Leeds platform works generally led with "delay to six carriage trains" as part of the headline, so it has been mentioned since the start of the franchise. It may still be binned, but I have not seen anything official along those lines, and as it's nigh on 2 years until completion of works I can understand why it's low down Northern's list of items to publish updates about.

But again, this just refers to Leeds. In reality whilst the enhancements will allow more movements, alleviating some of the congestion problems, with the shortening of some other platforms its hard to see where the extra capacity will come from. I firmly suspect that from a Network Rail perspective, the Aire & Wharfe extensions have been kicked firmly down the road. This will leave only SDO available as an option, which again the quiet dropping of references since 2016 suggests that they too have shelved the idea for now.

From a train crew point of view, the ASDO is so unreliable, as are the units themselves, that the idea of 6 car with SDO on the NW triangle in the rush hour is fear inducing more than anything else. Hopefully solutions will be found.

I'm not going to question a member of crew's perspective, but from a passenger one the 331s seem to have settled in OK on the Aire & Wharfe routes. I've caught plenty recently, and they have been no more troublesome than the 333s, and better than the 321/322s that seem to be rattling themselves apart.

 

[oscarthecat92]

The latest Network Rail Enhancements Delivery Plan on their website (December 2019) still includes "longer train standages on platform 6" as part of Phase 3 of the Leeds Station Capacity Enhancements, Entry Into Service date of Dec 21. The news articles in March 2019 reporting on the 2 year delay to the Leeds platform works generally led with "delay to six carriage trains" as part of the headline, so it has been mentioned since the start of the franchise. It may still be binned, but I have not seen anything official along those lines, and as it's nigh on 2 years until completion of works I can understand why it's low down Northern's list of items to publish updates about.

There is a clear need for something to be done with these lines as the existing trains are crush loaded in rush hour to the point of leaving people behind sometimes and they are only going to get more popular with the housebuilding happening in the area.
I would imagine these lines are pretty profitable so hopefully platform extensions will definitely happen, as there is likely a case to do so.

 

[jamiearmley]

The 32x series are even now more reliable than the 333/331 units. They are old, but I would rather work them in multiple than the 331's. In theory, 331 in multiple should be fine. However, the quality of the build, and the complexity / failure rate of the systems, (not just door systems) mean that most crew have major doubts. Personally, I foresee delays caused by asdo failure , caused by passengers forcing their way through 2 crush loaded carriages to exit, and safety risks associated with non platformed door release and passenger operated emergency egress at stations on non platformed doors. I would rather, long term, 4 track Leeds to Shipley, additional bay at Shipley, double track apperley jn to springs junction, in order to run peak time crowd busters. This would also improve the resilience of the NW triangle as a whole. It won't happen, unfortunately.

 

[oscarthecat92]

The 32x series are even now more reliable than the 333/331 units. They are old, but I would rather work them in multiple than the 331's. In theory, 331 in multiple should be fine. However, the quality of the build, and the complexity / failure rate of the systems, (not just door systems) mean that most crew have major doubts. Personally, I foresee delays caused by asdo failure , caused by passengers forcing their way through 2 crush loaded carriages to exit, and safety risks associated with non platformed door release and passenger operated emergency egress at stations on non platformed doors. I would rather, long term, 4 track Leeds to Shipley, additional bay at Shipley, double track apperley jn to springs junction, in order to run peak time crowd busters. This would also improve the resilience of the NW triangle as a whole. It won't happen, unfortunately.

Surely platform extensions to accommodate 6 coaches would be a cheaper and quicker solution?

 

[Bantamzen]

The 32x series are even now more reliable than the 333/331 units. They are old, but I would rather work them in multiple than the 331's. In theory, 331 in multiple should be fine. However, the quality of the build, and the complexity / failure rate of the systems, (not just door systems) mean that most crew have major doubts. Personally, I foresee delays caused by asdo failure , caused by passengers forcing their way through 2 crush loaded carriages to exit, and safety risks associated with non platformed door release and passenger operated emergency egress at stations on non platformed doors. I would rather, long term, 4 track Leeds to Shipley, additional bay at Shipley, double track apperley jn to springs junction, in order to run peak time crowd busters. This would also improve the resilience of the NW triangle as a whole. It won't happen, unfortunately.

Sorry, I can't agree with that first sentence. The 32xs are in poor shape, just the other day I had to force open a set of doors that were unwilling to open more than a few inches. And over the last few months I've on a few that have had power issues and sat down more than once. The sooner they are retired the better.

 

[jamiearmley]

Sorry, I can't agree with that first sentence. The 32xs are in poor shape, just the other day I had to force open a set of doors that were unwilling to open more than a few inches. And over the last few months I've on a few that have had power issues and sat down more than once. The sooner they are retired the better.

That's fair enough fella, we have different experiences : those episodes you describe tend to be what I experience with the 331 units unfortunately.

 

[XC victim]

I am not convinced that the 331’s are a good choice for the Airedale and Wharfdale lines. Whilst 2+2 seating and tables may certainly be more comfortable than the units on there at present it is quite a reduction in capacity from the class 333. Also most journeys on these lines are less than 30mins.

The 333’s have been perfect for these routes and although I am not a fan of 3+2 seating, it does seem to work on the 333’s. Running a pair of 3 car units does also appear to cause a lot of difficulties. I could see the unit closest to the gate line at Leeds being very crowded as everyone jumps on the first 3 coaches. Leaving the front unit quite under used. SDO could be very problematic on overcrowded services. Also I believe the plan is to only use the 6 car units on Skipton - Leeds services. As currently all services on the triangle are interlinked it would required extra units. I also believe the plan is to run 3 car units on quieter off peak services. The drop in capacity from a 4 car 333 to a 3 car 331 would be very noticeable. And it certainly wouldn’t be long before peak time services would end up shortformed of a 3car unit.

 

[73001]

Surely platform extensions to accommodate 6 coaches would be a cheaper and quicker solution?

I'm sure I read somewhere that they couldn't be thrown together cheaply anymore due to new standards / regulations. Therefore it would be an expensive job to renew the whole platform at each place.

 

[Halish Railway]

Running a pair of 3 car units does also appear to cause a lot of difficulties. I could see the unit closest to the gate line at Leeds being very crowded as everyone jumps on the first 3 coaches. Leaving the front unit quite under used. SDO could be very problematic on overcrowded services. Also I believe the plan is to only use the 6 car units on Skipton - Leeds services.

I'm pretty sure that commuters will quickly adapt. Also, I thought the original plan was to have 16 331/0s based out of Neville Hill, which is too many for just the Airedale services, which would probably be around 4 self contained diagrams (8 units), so they've probably got something else planned. Since the doubling of the line from Apperley Junction to Springs junction isn't going to happen any time soon, the Leeds to Ilkley runs would probably be a good idea.

I also believe the plan is to run 3 car units on quieter off peak services.

I hope not! On midday out of term/weekend services from Ilkley/Skipton you'll find most of the seats taken by the final stop so there probably is enough justification for double units to be used on off-peak services.

 

[samuelmorris]

The 32x series are even now more reliable than the 333/331 units. They are old, but I would rather work them in multiple than the 331's. In theory, 331 in multiple should be fine. However, the quality of the build, and the complexity / failure rate of the systems, (not just door systems) mean that most crew have major doubts. Personally, I foresee delays caused by asdo failure , caused by passengers forcing their way through 2 crush loaded carriages to exit, and safety risks associated with non platformed door release and passenger operated emergency egress at stations on non platformed doors. I would rather, long term, 4 track Leeds to Shipley, additional bay at Shipley, double track apperley jn to springs junction, in order to run peak time crowd busters. This would also improve the resilience of the NW triangle as a whole. It won't happen, unfortunately.

Not backed up by data I'm afraid - the 321/322s are far better than 331s for now, but hopefully that will change. The 333s, however, are considerably better than either, despite being well below the reliability of most other operators' EMUs. 321/322 doors have always been a bit dodgy from new, but those issues don't seem anything like as commonplace as the current software-related door issues plaguing the Civity units.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

The 331's simply aren't fit for purpose for the busy commuter routes that are the Airedale and Wharfedale lines.

Has there been an indication that they'll be altered in the future? The tables are unnecessary beyond belief!

 

[Bantamzen]

The 331's simply aren't fit for purpose for the busy commuter routes that are the Airedale and Wharfedale lines.

Has there been an indication that they'll be altered in the future? The tables are unnecessary beyond belief!

Outside of the peaks they are fine, inside they need to be longer (which is why 6 car operation was originally mooted).

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Outside of the peaks they are fine, inside they need to be longer (which is why 6 car operation was originally mooted).

Trouble with that is the peak times have people packed in like sardines.

The platform extensions would be great but I think we all know that won't happen but I hope I'm proven wrong.

Shipley would be difficult, on one hand platform 4 could easily be lengthened but platform 1 would need to be extended towards the bridge, 2 could probably be extended towards Soltaire but not sure how you'd do 5! The alternative to platform 5 would be to rebuild platform 5 on the other side (where the old one still is), it would give you slightly more room but then you'd need an access bridge too.

 

[Bantamzen]

Trouble with that is the peak times have people packed in like sardines.

The platform extensions would be great but I think we all know that won't happen but I hope I'm proven wrong.

Shipley would be difficult, on one hand platform 4 could easily be lengthened but platform 1 would need to be extended towards the bridge, 2 could probably be extended towards Soltaire but not sure how you'd do 5! The alternative to platform 5 would be to rebuild platform 5 on the other side, would give you slightly more room but then you'd need an access bridge too.

P1/2 could probably be extended to the east, although this would require the signalling at both to be moved back, plus additional works where the alignment crosses over the station approach. Expensive but not impossible, which is probably why Network Rail have been dragging their heels on all the supposed extensions. Imagine extending somewhere like Saltaire but ignoring Shipley!!

P4 is by far the easiest, and given that LNER services to Bradford ramp up from May (hopefully) you'd think this was an obvious and quick win so that the LNERs don't need to use P3 in both directions. However there were no plans to see 6 car Northern formations serving Bradford -Leeds / Ilkley / Skipton routes, so P5 probably doesn't need doing, and probably wouldn't be possible anyway.

But like you I don't expect any of this to happen anytime soon. And whilst we agree the 4 car 331s don't have enough capacity, neither do the 333s in truth let alone the 321/322s. But it is the 331s we have, there is as far as I know nothing else that could be made available that would fit what we have.

 

[Bovverboy]

Out of interest, could someone enlighten me in respect of the relative popularity of the various Airedale & Wharfedale routes? Bantanzen's post (above) infers that only the Leeds - Skipton and Leeds - Ilkley services have been proposed for 6-car formations, implying that those two services are the most heavily patronised.

 

[oscarthecat92]

Out of interest, could someone enlighten me in respect of the relative popularity of the various Airedale & Wharfedale routes? Bantanzen's post (above) infers that only the Leeds - Skipton and Leeds - Ilkley services have been proposed for 6-car formations, implying that those two services are the most heavily patronised.

Leeds is the main employment centre in the region so the Leeds services to/from lkley and Skipton are the ones which experience severe overcrowding in rush hours.

The Bradford to Ilkley / Skipton services are not overcrowded but well patronised.

The Leeds to Bradford Foster Square service is also becoming increasingly busy with developments at Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge, both relatively new stations

 

[Bantamzen]

Out of interest, could someone enlighten me in respect of the relative popularity of the various Airedale & Wharfedale routes? Bantanzen's post (above) infers that only the Leeds - Skipton and Leeds - Ilkley services have been proposed for 6-car formations, implying that those two services are the most heavily patronised.

From purely my observations, the Leeds-Skipton services as the busiest throughout the day, followed by Leeds-Ilkley in the peaks, with Bradford-Skipton reasonably busy, Bradford-Leeds lighter (but definitely getting busier), with Bradford-Ilkley probably the lightest save a couple around school / opening times, and also in the summer when they can get very busy at weekends & evenings.

I understood, mainly from previous threads on the subject, that the intention for 6 car services was Leeds-Skipton in the peaks, with possibly some strengthening on Leeds-Ilkley. As others have noted, this would require the various diagrams to be split, because as things stand all triangle services interwork all routes at some point, with Bradford & Leeds being the usual places where an incoming services turns back to a different destination.

 

[Bovverboy]

Thanks for the prompt replies.

 

[xotGD]

This morning I noticed that some of the colourful hoardings on P1 at Leeds mention 'longer trains'. So perhaps all is not lost.

 

[Bantamzen]

This morning I noticed that some of the colourful hoardings on P1 at Leeds mention 'longer trains'. So perhaps all is not lost.

There was once a bus driving around promising £350m per week being re-directed to the NHS. Seriously though, I wouldn't be holding out too much hope because it's written on the side of a hoarding. P0 doesn't solve any of the potential issues at quite a few stations along the Aire & Wharfe.

One thing did get me thinking though, with all the rumour of the 195s getting extra carriages ordered, would it at all be possible to order at least one extra for the 331s? It wouldn't solve the issue of short platforms, but at least a 5 or (whispers) 6 car 331 gangwayed throughout would be a bit easier to manage when using SDO. Just a thought like.

 

[Roast Veg]

One thing did get me thinking though, with all the rumour of the 195s getting extra carriages ordered, would it at all be possible to order at least one extra for the 331s? It wouldn't solve the issue of short platforms, but at least a 5 or (whispers) 6 car 331 gangwayed throughout would be a bit easier to manage when using SDO. Just a thought like.

Surely it would be better to extend as many of the 331/0s to 4 car as possible? Northern have great swathes of 3 car units in the form of the 323s in the west, and only demand (for now) for 4 car units on the majority of routes, especially on the east side but also on Liv/Man workings.