Northern Complimentary tickets and their validity with the new operator

[HSP 2]

Now that the Gov. have put its cards on the table about Northern and what could happen.

What I'd like to ask if anyone knows what could happen to any delay repay tickets that have not been used

I know that the tickets are self validating in that you have to fill in all of the details before travel, it's just that I do have a number that I've not used (I don't think that I'll be the only person).

 

[gray1404]

I imagine these tickets will continue to be valid across all arms/brands of whatever new arrangements the government set up (on all of the former Northern routes) for an indefinite period.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I imagine these tickets will continue to be valid across all arms/brands of whatever new arrangements the government set up (on all of the former Northern routes) for an indefinite period.

I agree. I think you might struggle if you wait literally years before redeeming your ticket (e.g. if you wait for the replacement for ARN to be supplanted) but otherwise TOCs have generally honoured tickets of all sorts issued under previous ownership.

 

[gray1404]

I have to admit I've held on to Northern free tickets a few years before using them. I still have a few left to use up and don't plan on using them anytime soon.

 

[paddington]

Well now that Mr Shapps has actually said something, I suppose it's likely they will still be valid this summer which is when I will next venture to the north of England.

There are no records of when these tickets are used (unless someone claims delay repay!), so if there is to be a new private operator in the future they would potentially be taking on a liability to allow as many free journeys as the number of tickets that have been issued. I don't think it's a franchise requirement to offer these free tickets - but if I was running a new operator I wouldn't really want to take on this liability, however if the new operator continues to offer free tickets as delay repay then maybe it doesn't matter.

The average fare I have avoided by using these tickets is £45, although I may have used advances, cheaper routes or travelled at off-peak times if I didn't have them.

 

[BigCj34]

Would Northern have to rebrand if Arriva lose the franchise? If not, it would be very confusing if Northern branded vouchers were not accepted on trains with the same logo! They could choose not to issue new rail passes in the future, but not accepting existing ones would be very bad PR (which would be entirely on the operator, no infrastructure or rolling stock issues to hide behind on that occasion).

 

[aye2beeviasea]

I might be being pedantic here, but from the FAQ site https://www.northern.olrholdings.co.uk/faqs/customers

Q: I have travel vouchers from a previous refund. Will these be honoured by Northern Trains Limited?

Yes, you can still use your travel vouchers. They will remain valid up to their expiry date.

I have 'Complimentary Travel Pass' tickets from delay repay claims with no expiry date. Same thing?

 

[_toommm_]

I might be being pedantic here, but from the FAQ site https://www.northern.olrholdings.co.uk/faqs/customers
I have 'Complimentary Travel Pass' tickets from delay repay claims with no expiry date. Same thing?

The purple comp tickets will still be valid.

 

[Djgr]

The purple comp tickets will still be valid.

But I really wouldn't hold onto them for years and years!

 

[gray1404]

What was the original expiry date of the franchise that has been taken back? I'd say at the very least I'd expect the comp tickets to be valid until then.

Also, if moving forward the comp tickets given out by the new operator are on exactly the same ticket stock then that is another indication their validity will continue.

 

[HSP 2]

I'll just say if you can claim a free ticket go for it, and use them wisely.

Say Hull to Liverpool Via York, Leeds, Carnforth, Preston and Wigan.

PS. I never read the small print on the back of a ticket.

 

[Kite159]

What was the original expiry date of the franchise that has been taken back? I'd say at the very least I'd expect the comp tickets to be valid until then.

Also, if moving forward the comp tickets given out by the new operator are on exactly the same ticket stock then that is another indication their validity will continue.

It will be interesting to see if the new operator continues with the free tickets if you are delayed, or will they move back to just giving money back if you are delayed, in line with other operators.

 

[SteveM70]

It will be interesting to see if the new operator continues with the free tickets if you are delayed, or will they move back to just giving money back if you are delayed, in line with other operators.

Indeed. Whilst it’s generally more generous than standard DR15, and therefore DfT/OLR might think it reasonable to withdraw it, they really need to consider the PR and passenger impact.

 

[gray1404]

Given that when the comp tickets were issued it was for a franchise that was meant to run until March 2025, I shall ensure I use all my existing Northern Comp tickets by then. The existing liabilities will transfer to the new operator(s) of the franchise so I don't think it is unreasonable to use them up by then. I can't find the exact date in March 2025 the franchise was meant to run until. Another interesting question, if the new holder gets rid of the comp tickets, what if you are unfortunate to be delayed while using one? At least under the current scheme you are safeguarded in that if you are unfortunate to be delayed again, you might get another free journey. This is no different to if a customer used a RTV or the money they were paid in compensation from a claim to get another paper ticket, they could claim again.

It will be interesting to see if the compensation method of free tickets continues. The idea was started by old Northern in that for Customer Service/severe delay complaints they would sometimes send a ticket allowing free travel for a day or 2. Then when Arriva Rail North took the franchise over they offered these as part of their delay repay scheme. Interestingly Arriva do not offer such an option with their other UK franchises (such as on Chiltern or Cross Country). I wonder if this is because the value of a typical journey is either local or Regional. Rater then from one end of the UK to the other (Aberdeen to Penzance). Of course, there are those of us who will do long distance journeys using these Northern tickets (Liverpool to Newcastle, Carlisle to Nottingham) but, compared to the number they give out, we are most likely a minority.

Given that compensation now has to be paid as "cash" (be that BACs/card payment), offering customers something of slightly more value but at no real cost to the company is arguably a revenue neutral way of issuing compensation - although if the customer used one for a journey they would have otherwise purchased a ticket, there could have said to be something of a loss.

Either way, I shall intend using my comps until 2025.

 

[BigCj34]

Given that when the comp tickets were issued it was for a franchise that was meant to run until March 2025, I shall ensure I use all my existing Northern Comp tickets by then. The existing liabilities will transfer to the new operator(s) of the franchise so I don't think it is unreasonable to use them up by then. I can't find the exact date in March 2025 the franchise was meant to run until. Another interesting question, if the new holder gets rid of the comp tickets, what if you are unfortunate to be delayed while using one? At least under the current scheme you are safeguarded in that if you are unfortunate to be delayed again, you might get another free journey. This is no different to if a customer used a RTV or the money they were paid in compensation from a claim to get another paper ticket, they could claim again.

It will be interesting to see if the compensation method of free tickets continues. The idea was started by old Northern in that for Customer Service/severe delay complaints they would sometimes send a ticket allowing free travel for a day or 2. Then when Arriva Rail North took the franchise over they offered these as part of their delay repay scheme. Interestingly Arriva do not offer such an option with their other UK franchises (such as on Chiltern or Cross Country). I wonder if this is because the value of a typical journey is either local or Regional. Rater then from one end of the UK to the other (Aberdeen to Penzance). Of course, there are those of us who will do long distance journeys using these Northern tickets (Liverpool to Newcastle, Carlisle to Nottingham) but, compared to the number they give out, we are most likely a minority.

Given that compensation now has to be paid as "cash" (be that BACs/card payment), offering customers something of slightly more value but at no real cost to the company is arguably a revenue neutral way of issuing compensation - although if the customer used one for a journey they would have otherwise purchased a ticket, there could have said to be something of a loss.

Either way, I shall intend using my comps until 2025.

I think people travelling on complimentary passes is the last thing XC need, under such a system you could travel from Aberdeen to Penzance because a journey from Cheltenham to Bristol was delayed (I know I would!). Now realistically that wouldn't happen in most cases but someone could quite easily choose to make a 3 hour intercity trip.

 

[HSP 2]

I think people travelling on complimentary passes is the last thing XC need, under such a system you could travel from Aberdeen to Penzance because a journey from Cheltenham to Bristol was delayed (I know I would!). Now realistically that wouldn't happen in most cases but someone could quite easily choose to make a 3 hour intercity trip.

Are you on the correct page most of us are talking about Northern! I think?

It would be very nice if I could use my delay repay tickets on some of these trips.

 

[Kite159]

Indeed. Whilst it’s generally more generous than standard DR15, and therefore DfT/OLR might think it reasonable to withdraw it, they really need to consider the PR and passenger impact.

I guess it depends on the ratio of passengers selecting the free tickets compared to getting money back, they could turn round and say for the number getting issued it costs too much admin, money better spent within the franchise by employing roaming cleaners etc

 

[gray1404]

I guess they will have their own way of working out how much a "free journey" cost them in real terms vs paying the "cash" of delay repay entitlement into a passengers bank account.

It could be they base the "cost" of the free journey based on the journey claimed against (balance of probabilities customer will make the same journey). Either way it doesn't involve taking money out of the business in the same way a "cash" payment would.

The cost of administering a delay repay claim should broadly be the same for both "payout" methods. Both still need to be looked at and approved. The only differential is if a free ticket is posted out second class or a payment made to a card/bank account. Both will have cost involved.

 

[BigCj34]

Are you on the correct page most of us are talking about Northern! I think?

It would be very nice if I could use my delay repay tickets on some of these trips.

I was speculating as to why Northern as an Arriva owned franchise issued complimentary passes, but not XC which is also Arriva, replying to another post.

How many tickets do you have? It's probably going to be fine for the next few years according to what others say here. It certainly would be very bizarre if trains stoped accepting vouchers with a matching logo. You can always write to customer services and get cast iron assurance about the future of them too.

 

[SteveM70]

They’ve confirmed on twitter that they’ll be valid after 1 March. Shame about the typo but you take what you can get with northern

 

[Kite159]

I guess they will have their own way of working out how much a "free journey" cost them in real terms vs paying the "cash" of delay repay entitlement into a passengers bank account.

It could be they base the "cost" of the free journey based on the journey claimed against (balance of probabilities customer will make the same journey). Either way it doesn't involve taking money out of the business in the same way a "cash" payment would.

The cost of administering a delay repay claim should broadly be the same for both "payout" methods. Both still need to be looked at and approved. The only differential is if a free ticket is posted out second class or a payment made to a card/bank account. Both will have cost involved.

I would say the cost of processing the free ticket is greater than the cost of processing a payment to card/bank account, for example producing a letter, locating the stock of free tickets to tick the right box(s), inputting reference number on the rear, then posting the letter.

 

[SteveM70]

I would say the cost of processing the free ticket is greater than the cost of processing a payment to card/bank account, for example producing a letter, locating the stock of free tickets to tick the right box(s), inputting reference number on the rear, then posting the letter.

True, but a proportion of the freebie tickets will be used for journeys that otherwise wouldn’t happen, such as “how far can I get for free at the weekend”

 

[gray1404]

Given they've confirmed the free tickets will be honoured by the new franchise holder, that could include anything appointed after the operator of last resort.

In other words it sounds like the comp tickets will be valid on: (rightly so too)
The current operator until March
The operator of last resort from March
The new franchise holder thereafter (if there is one)

 

[Wallsendmag]

As someone who's possibly been through the most Franchise changes on one route. I've yet to see a new incumbent refuse to accept previously issued ticket, vouchers etc up until the items expiry date.

 

[gray1404]

That is where these free tickets are quite unique in that they don't have an expiry date on them. Old Northern used to print an expiry date on them of 12 months from the date of issue. This was useful when Arriva Northern took over in that you know they were still going to be accepted up until the original date of expiry. However, there were not as many such day passes about as they were not a delay repay entitlement.

Once Arriva Northern took over the free journey (be that single, return or all day - as there's a box for that) passes were issued without an expiry date on them. Also, they became a payout option for delay repay claims so more of them issued.

In the absence of an expiry date, it leads me to believe it is not unreasonable to expect them to be valid, at least, until the original expiry date of the Arriva Northern of March 2025. If anyone knows the exact date this should have been please advise? This is because this is the franchise end date made available at the time the passes were issued of the company they were issued by.

I rather suspect the Operator of Last Resort will continue to operate the existing delay repay scheme when they take over and have exactly the same free passes issued on the same stock. It is worth remembering that Northern's "Customer Experience Centre" is outsourced anyway and not ran by Arriva. I would be highly surprised if the OLR had the capacity to set up their on Customer Relations Department for Northern operations. When they have taken control of other franchises they have kept the already existing customer relations department open. (On a side note, I was surprised that the former TOC staff for Old Northern who ran their Customer Relations in Leeds were not TUPED across to Arriva Northern and how they were able get away with outsourcing it. Although I understand the likes of GWR no longer have their stuff in house either.)

All this aside, it would also be really bad PR for the OLR (the state ran operator) to start refusing to accept anything. Likewise, a future franchise holder would not want the bad publicity associated with it.

 

[Wallsendmag]

You be surprised what came back in house when OLR took over running ICEC it's definitely not business as usual big changes took place.

 

[janb]

It is worth remembering that Northern's "Customer Experience Centre" is outsourced anyway and not ran by Arriva.

The CEC was brought back in house in 2018 after Carillion collapsed.

 

[SteveM70]

The CEC was brought back in house in 2018 after Carillion collapsed.

when I get compensation in rail travel vouchers the envelope always has an Arbroath address on the back.

 

[Haywain]

when I get compensation in rail travel vouchers the envelope always has an Arbroath address on the back.

Which proves nothing at all.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I've got six in the bank - I'll be burning a couple of them on lowish value trips before the end of March - I want to be sure of getting some value from them.