Northern conductor: m-ticket invalid without payment receipt

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aformeruser

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Today I was on a Northern service where a young of tourists from the Channel Islands were on. One showed the conductor an m-ticket on his phone, to which the conductor responded "How did you pay?" to which the young man responded "Mastercard" to which conductor responded "You need to find me the email proving you made payment which will have your full Mastercard number." The passenger found an email saying something along the lines of "Thank you for buying your ticket from the Northern app" which the conductor said wasn't good enough. After a couple of minutes arguing the conductor walked off cursing under his breath.

Do Northern conductors not get trained on etickets? I know for a fact an email receipt should never contain more than 4 digits from a card number as emails aren't sent over encrypted connections.

The conductor may of had some kind of attitude problem as despite having a pair of 150/2s to work and more passengers than seats for one unit (one unit was a/the 150/2 with the new accessible toilet) he refused to open the rear set, despite the conductor who worked the earlier service on the same line with the same two units having both units open.
 
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najaB

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"You need to find me the email proving you made payment which will have your full Mastercard number."
Wrong. Just wrong.

I know it doesn't affect you personally but it would be worth Tweeting* Northern's customer service team to let them know what you've seen.

*Or calling/emailing if you aren't a Twitter user.
 

Puffing Devil

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There may have been an activation problem with the ticket, or some other issue with the app.

Agree that there would not be the full MC details in the receipt. At least no Penalty Notice issued.
 

Adam0984

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Was it a proper m-ticket or was it a confirmation email for collect at machine tickets?
 

aformeruser

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Was it a proper m-ticket or was it a confirmation email for collect at machine tickets?

Looked like an m-ticket when he originally held it up to show the conductor. He also boarded at a station without a TVM so presumably would have been warned about TOD not being available if he had tried to go down that route within the app.
 

LowLevel

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The only time that applies at the minute is if you have a Merseytravel Walrus card, you have to keep the receipt for it to be valid on trains.
 

Adam0984

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Looked like an m-ticket when he originally held it up to show the conductor. He also boarded at a station without a TVM so presumably would have been warned about TOD not being available if he had tried to go down that route within the app.
Looked like an m-ticket but not 100%. Has the fact that the boarding station not having a TVM to pick up from every stopped people before, they just select the destination and say it'll be right. Maybe (and this maybe a bit of a shocker) the conductor was doing the passengers a favour by not charging them for new tickets because they hadn't picked their TOD tickets up
 

headshot119

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The only time that applies at the minute is if you have a Merseytravel Walrus card, you have to keep the receipt for it to be valid on trains.

Sorry but I don't agree with this. No where am I told I need to keep the receipt when I buy a ticket on the card. In fact a lot of shops don't even give me the receipt.
 

aformeruser

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Looked like an m-ticket but not 100%. Has the fact that the boarding station not having a TVM to pick up from every stopped people before, they just select the destination and say it'll be right. Maybe (and this maybe a bit of a shocker) the conductor was doing the passengers a favour by not charging them for new tickets because they hadn't picked their TOD tickets up

I think your suggested scenario is unlikely mainly because if it wasn't a ticket but was proof of purchase within the app why would the conductor have asked for email proof of purchase (effectively the same thing but in an email form) without first explaining for TOD you are supposed to collect your tickets prior to boarding? There would also have been no advance tickets available between the stations the passenger was travelling between so the only advantage of him buying through the app would have been so he didn't have to queue at the station, which obviously isn't an advantage for TOD.
 
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"Looked like an m-ticket" says to me it's one of the many screenshots we get shown, that omit all of the security information that we look for to ensure its not fraudulent, happens a lot unfortunately.
 

aformeruser

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"Looked like an m-ticket" says to me it's one of the many screenshots we get shown, that omit all of the security information that we look for to ensure its not fraudulent, happens a lot unfortunately.

"Looked like an m-ticket" means from where I was sat it looked like a m-ticket as much as the orange ticket belonging to passenger who was sat opposite me looked like a train ticket. The fact the conductor asked for his email receipt and on being shown it said it wasn't good enough to me suggested the conductor hasn't been properly trained on m-tickets, which very few Northern passengers seem to use.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
At least no Penalty Notice issued.

On re-reading what I posted in the original post I've realised I forgot to say the passenger said he would buy a new ticket if they refunded him for the one he purchased through the app.
 
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Deerfold

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There would also have been no advance tickets available between the stations the passenger was travelling between so the only advantage of him buying through the app would have been so he didn't have to queue at the station, which obviously isn't an advantage for TOD.

Why would there not?

Advance tickets were available from Steeton and Silsden years before you could pick them up.

There are advance tickets available to other Northern stations on the same line.
 

aformeruser

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Why would there not?

Advance tickets were available from Steeton and Silsden years before you could pick them up.

There are advance tickets available to other Northern stations on the same line.

I mean the Advance category of tickets: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46583.aspx opposed to just tickets purchased before you arrive at the station. Northern don't do Advance tickets between the two stations the passenger in question was travelling between. Buying a m-ticket from the app means you can turn up at the station a couple minutes before the train departs without worrying how long it'll take to get to get a ticket (and the only real advantage of using the app if there are no Advance tickets available) which isn't the case with TOD which wouldn't have been advertised as being available.

Anyway nothing the conductor or passenger said even hinted at it being TOD. The conductor certainly didn't advise the passenger about how TOD is supposed to work and there was no mention of collecting tickets.
 
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Deerfold

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I mean the Advance category of tickets: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46583.aspx opposed to just tickets purchased before you arrive at the station. Northern don't do Advance tickets between the two stations the passenger in question was travelling between. Buying a m-ticket from the app means you can turn up at the station a couple minutes before the train departs without worrying how long it'll take to get to get a ticket (and the only real advantage of using the app if there are no Advance tickets available) which isn't the case with TOD which wouldn't have been advertised as being available.

Anyway nothing the conductor or passenger said even hinted at it being TOD. The conductor certainly didn't advise the passenger about how TOD is supposed to work and there was no mention of collecting tickets.

I know what you meant by Advance tickets. From your OP, i didn't realise you knew which stations they were travelling between - you didn't share it with us.
 

DaleCooper

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"Looked like an m-ticket" means from where I was sat it looked like a m-ticket as much as the orange ticket belonging to passenger who was sat opposite me looked like a train ticket. The fact the conductor asked for his email receipt and on being shown it said it wasn't good enough to me suggested the conductor hasn't been properly trained on m-tickets, which very few Northern passengers seem to use.

As the conductor probably had a better view than you (from where you were sat) how do you know they hadn't spotted something which caused them to ask for more information? Could you have spotted a forged paper ticket from where you were sat?
 

najaB

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This is all very well and good, but who's going to tell the guard that the full card number won't be shown on the email confirmation?
 

aformeruser

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I know what you meant by Advance tickets. From your OP, i didn't realise you knew which stations they were travelling between - you didn't share it with us.

I chose not to put the full journey details in the original post because I thought someone might object if I give enough details to identify a staff member. They travelled between the same two stations as I did and neither station has onward connections to different National Rail services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is all very well and good, but who's going to tell the guard that the full card number won't be shown on the email confirmation?

Good point. Some people seem to be coming up with any reason they can think of to argue my suggestion that the conductor hasn't been properly trained. Yet no-one has given any reason why a conductor should ever have to ask for an email receipt, never mind one showing a Mastercard number. One person suggested it could have been a screenshot of a m-ticket but there's a simple way to determine that - ask them to close the app and reopen it while you're watching them, then you know for certain they are in the app not their image gallery.

I get the impression the conductor yesterday could have been shown an email from Alex Hynes' email address saying the ticket is valid and he would have still argued there was a problem with it, given he asked the passenger for the confirmation email and was disputing the content of the confirmation email with the passenger.
 

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headshot119

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It's in the T and Cs here, point 2.5 whether you agree or not - you'd have to take that up with Merseytravel as it's their product!

http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/Tickets/buying-tickets/Pages/Ticket-T-and-C.aspx

I have taken it up with Mersey Travel after Merseyrail attempted to Penalty fare me.

What a rediculous system where you buy a product on a smart card, and have to keep a piece of paper to prove you put a product on the card. The agent at Mersey Travel fully agreed with me, and said the T&Cs had only been amended because MerseyRail and ATW didn't have the technology to read the smart cards!!!

And as I've said above a lot of shops don't give you the receipt anyway :roll: so try enforcing the condition then.
 

LowLevel

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I'm not disagreeing with you, as it happens I quite agree (Nottingham has the same problem at present and train crew are told to accept the cards, the council does random inspections from time to time instead, a reasonable solution).

What I am saying is that it doesn't mean that it isn't the condition of use and if the vendor doesn't provide a receipt you should take it up with them, that's not the train operator's issue when they are simply working to the T&Cs - the railway are entitled to request you and you are still required to provide one :)
 

tony_mac

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We are wandering off-topic here, but it's absurd to suggest that its the passengers fault if they don't get given a receipt. (You can't 'keep' a receipt that you were never in possession of, and by the time you can possibly read the conditions, it would be too late anyway).

Even more off-topic, it seems that the conditions of Merseytravel's smartcard tickets, unlike the paper tickets, does not prevent them being shared between multiple people.
 

185143

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I have taken it up with Mersey Travel after Merseyrail attempted to Penalty fare me.

What a rediculous system where you buy a product on a smart card, and have to keep a piece of paper to prove you put a product on the card. The agent at Mersey Travel fully agreed with me, and said the T&Cs had only been amended because MerseyRail and ATW didn't have the technology to read the smart cards!!!

And as I've said above a lot of shops don't give you the receipt anyway :roll: so try enforcing the condition then.

ATW do have technology to read the card, and have done for a while!Northern Pacer had his card scanned well over 6 months ago on a borderlands line service!
 

Abpj17

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There is no justification for asking to see the credit card full number.
 

headshot119

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ATW do have technology to read the card, and have done for a while!Northern Pacer had his card scanned well over 6 months ago on a borderlands line service!

My case goes back quite a while, I'm aware ATW now have the technology, it's an app on there company issued smart phone.
 

gimmea50anyday

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There is no justification for asking to see the credit card full number.

No, you are right and ordinarily we wouldnt need to see the credit card or the receipt. All that is needed is for the eticket or mticket to be active which will show the animated bar at the top and any accompanying railcards.

Its a little different with print at home as proof of ID has to be declared. This can be anything but the ID ref printed on the ticket must match the ID. This can be a credit or debit card (last 4 digits) driving license, passport or any other ID as listed on the purchasing website.

There is NO requirement to produce proof of purchase normally. although should there be a problem with the ticket or journey we may ask then in an attempt to resolve any issues.
 

ANorthernGuard

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No guard should ever ask for the card number and the training for e-tickets is abysmal if you are not tech savvy it can be quite confusing for the some guards. It didn't help that the franchise changed when it did as training for numerous different things is well behind schedule and with a very large push for more conductors and the training needed it will not be seen as a priority.
 
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Wrong. Just wrong.

I know it doesn't affect you personally but it would be worth Tweeting* Northern's customer service team to let them know what you've seen.

*Or calling/emailing if you aren't a Twitter user.

No not wrong at all, not suggesting the OP did this you can have situations where you see the guard coming, buy the mticket whilst on the train, the email receipt will give the time of purchase
 

Deerfold

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No not wrong at all, not suggesting the OP did this you can have situations where you see the guard coming, buy the mticket whilst on the train, the email receipt will give the time of purchase

But as NajaB said, it will not have the full Mastercard number.
 

najaB

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No not wrong at all, not suggesting the OP did this you can have situations where you see the guard coming, buy the mticket whilst on the train, the email receipt will give the time of purchase
True. It won't, however, show the full credit card number. Unless Northern's IT team have all failed Cybersecurity 101.
 
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