Northern Conductor ticket training

[theblackwatch]

After earlier this week having a member of staff telling me, again, that I had an off-peak ticket and this was the peak, I am wondering if anyone on here - hopefully a member of staff - knows what training Northern staff have on ticketing restrictions? Have they been told that off-peak tickets are not valid in the PM peak (which is totally incorrect)?

For the record, the ticket I had purchased (from the machine at the station, 1 min before boarding the train), was a Starbeck-Keighley return, which has a restriction code B1. This is defined as:
Outward Travel - Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.
Return Travel - Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.

I had actually preempted a 'discussion' with the conductor regarding my ticket, so I had already got the restriction code on my phone when he came round. He appeared to have no knowlegde of such things, but, to be fair, accepted my explanation and left me to it. However, I shouldn't have to explain why my ticket is valid! Would an elderly passenger have done the same?

 

[pemma]

If a passenger is incorrectly sold an Anytime ticket or an excess surely they are entitled to get a partial/full refund.

There does seem to be a lack of knowledge this side of the Pennines with both some guards and ticket office staff. Recently I've heard the following happen:
- Conductors selling Wayfarer tickets to pensioners boarding at Greenbank making a return trip to Manchester. That's the correct approach from some stations but Greenbank is one station outside the Wayfarer zone.
- Two passengers travelling together making single trips inquiring if it's cheaper to buy returns and being told it isn't, when in fact they could have been sold a Duo for less than two singles.
- A passenger wanting to travel to Manchester by tram (changing at Altrincham) being sold a full priced Wayfarer instead the correct ticket to Metrolink City. Then when they tweeted Northern they were told they had been sold the correct ticket!

And people say Northern bringing RPIs in house would solve the problems we hear about on a regular basis!

 

[Hadders]

If a passenger is incorrectly sold an Anytime ticket or an excess surely they are entitled to get a partial/full refund.

It shouldn't be necessary for passengers to pay up and claim back, and to stand out the value of the refund while waiting for it to be processed.

I strongly suspect getting a refund would not be straightforward. Customer services would probably send a standard response after several weeks stating that no refund was due as you were travelling at a 'peak' time. There would then need to be further exchanges to get a 'gesture of goodwill' issued...

 

[Merseysider]

It shouldn't be necessary for passengers to pay up and claim back, and to stand out the value of the refund while waiting for it to be processed.

I strongly suspect getting a refund would not be straightforward. Customer services would probably send a standard response after several weeks stating that no refund was due as you were travelling at a 'peak' time. There would then need to be further exchanges to get a 'gesture of goodwill' issued...

That does happen. However, when Northern got it wrong issuing me an excess fare, they did pay up within the month (a free day's travel, no less!) with an apology too

 

[gray1404]

Was the free day travel pass on top of your refund of the excess?

 

[Merseysider]

Was the free day travel pass on top of your refund of the excess?

No, I was only overcharged by a couple of quid so I found that more than sufficient

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Back in the day the restrictions that Northern staff (in the North West) had to deal with most commonly were the B_ type, governing Off-Peak Day Return am only restrictions, and the N_ type, governing Duo am and/or pm restrictions. Virgin's restrictions were fairly straightforward and TPE's were predominantly the same as Northern's. But in more recent years the whole situation has become much more complicated.

I would suggest the issue may not be about the initial training. The problem is more about "converting" the large number of staff dating back to the time of simpler restrictions into staff aware of the wider and more complicated situation that prevails today. As such the problem is more about the quality, or lack of, in the briefs given to current staff as well as any follow-up advice given by managers in response to longer-served staff who have found the changes a little confusing.

Comments are occasionally made here about the need for individual front-line staff members to be re-trained: perhaps the re-training is more necessary for people a little higher up the food chain!

 

[DaveB10780]

It is certainly not simple in Manchester when out of area has no restrictions and in Manchester PTE does from one stop up the line. In our case Furness Vale and New Mills, both in Derbyshire. Our tickets the other day failed the barrier at Oxford Road because we were in "Peak Time" which as has been said before many times it is the ticket that counts. Not so easy for the staff to know every station and the system does not make it easy for them. I reckon a free day ticket is a good deal, especially after just having a good free day out from Furness Vale to Carlisle!

 

[AngusH]

Is there a single officially issued paper leaflet listing all of the restrictions?

It wouldn't cost very much, would be reliable and it would make life much easier for everyone.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Is there a single officially issued paper leaflet listing all of the restrictions?...

Nope.

A member of staff did once compile a list of fairly common restriction codes in the North Yorkshire and Humberside area, but they no longer work for the company and no-one in the company has taken it up.

....It wouldn't cost very much, would be reliable and it would make life much easier for everyone.

It would also have to be checked at every fares revision (three times a year) and any updated version circulated, which makes it too much time and effort for the company to bother with.

 

[sheff1]

However, I shouldn't have to explain why my ticket is valid! Would an elderly passenger have done the same?

I have had to correct many a Northern conductor (and barrier staff) who do not have the first idea about the validity of tickets they are allegedly 'checking'. The latest was a Sheffield to Parbold OP Day Return which was supposedly not valid on the 1617 from Salford Central because "after 1600 it is peak time".

As so many seem unaware of such simple things, I can only assume they have been given no training, or incorrect training, on ticket validity which makes you wonder why they are charged with 'checking' tickets at all.

 

[pemma]

Comments are occasionally made here about the need for individual front-line staff members to be re-trained: perhaps the re-training is more necessary for people a little higher up the food chain!

It might be the trainers are properly trained but the amount of time allocated for training is insufficient or it could be some of the problems relate to the longer serving staff not being re-trained when changes are made to ticketing.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It might be the trainers are properly trained but the amount of time allocated for training is insufficient or it could be some of the problems relate to the longer serving staff not being re-trained when changes are made to ticketing.

I can't vouch for the level of training given to training 'academy' staff (though those I have met don't inspire confidence), but Northern can't even release enough staff to go on their propaganda courses, nevermind ticket training. Ticketing briefings generally get sent out by email (not by the training 'academy' either) and aren't always easy to follow (or correct). However, not all staff are interested in doing training courses.

 

[gray1404]

If possible I would recommend passenger who think they may have problems to present a copy of the ticket restriction text for their said ticket to the guard on their phone (or carry a print out) and make sure this is from the National Rail website. I would try to read off exactly what it says to prove your ticket is valid. No you should not have to be doing this. However, I think it is worth doing so that the staff member telling you your ticket is not valid sees that you have actually bothered to look up the information or that some passengers are capable of looking things up.

 

[TUC]

It is certainly not simple in Manchester when out of area has no restrictions and in Manchester PTE does from one stop up the line. In our case Furness Vale and New Mills, both in Derbyshire. Our tickets the other day failed the barrier at Oxford Road because we were in "Peak Time" which as has been said before many times it is the ticket that counts. Not so easy for the staff to know every station and the system does not make it easy for them. I reckon a free day ticket is a good deal, especially after just having a good free day out from Furness Vale to Carlisle!

But the starting point in basic rules for staff in North PTE areas (and I stress basic rules-I know there are exceptions) should be fairly straightforward. If the Off-Peak ticket is for wholly within the relevant PTE area (including boundary extensions agreed for some stations), then the Off-Peak restrictions are likely to apply. If the ticket includes a station outside of the boundary, different considerations will apply. Northern manage to sum it up on a single webpage. https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets/28-off-peak I don't think its asking much of staff to broadly know which stations are or aren't in their PTE area, or to know where to quickly look it up if in doubt.

 

[pemma]

But the starting point basic rules for staff in North PTE areas (and I stress basic rules-I know there are exceptions ) should be fairly straightforward. If the Off-Peak ticket is for wholly within the relevant PTE area (including boundary extensions agreed for some stations, thrn the Off-Peak restrictions are likely to apply. If the ticket includes a station outside of the boundary, different considerations will apply. Northern manage to sum it up on a single webpage. https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets/28-off-peak I don't think its asking much of staff to broadly know which stations are or arent't in their PTE area, or to know where to quickly look it up if in doubt.

There is a slight complication for the Manchester peak time restrictions including some stations in Cheshire, Lancashire and Derbyshire. However, that should make it easier for guards on some services e.g. they can quickly glance at the map before working an Alderley Edge service and see the restrictions apply to all stations on the route and don't change at the GM border.

 

[gray1404]

Why can't ticket restrictions be printed on the back of the ticket. We live in a world where we have double sided printers so if we had updated our ticket stock and printing stock by now whereby the restriction text was printed on the back of every ticket it would be very helpful.

 

[MikeWh]

Why can't ticket restrictions be printed on the back of the ticket. We live in a world where we have double sided printers so if we had updated our ticket stock and printing stock by now whereby the restriction text was printed on the back of every ticket it would be very helpful.

I'm sure someone will be along later to quote the restriction code with more than an A4 sheet of papers worth of text.

 

[gray1404]

I'm sure someone will be along later to quote the restriction code with more than an A4 sheet of papers worth of text.

(Like) (y)

 

[johntea]

As an aside to this, the Harrogate ticket barriers seem to HATE any tickets with the word 'Starbeck' involved!

Case in point I had to make a emergency trip to work yesterday so bought a fairly simple Castleford to Starbeck off peak day return as I was home for the weekend (even though I did Leeds to Starbeck outward in a taxi due to the fact I couldn't really wait around for the wonderful hourly connection gap on Sundays )

Anyway coming back I was closer to Harrogate station so I decided to catch the train from there, scanned my ticket at the barriers and 'Seek assistance'...not for the first time with a ticket involving Starbeck!

 

[island]

I'm sure someone will be along later to quote the restriction code with more than an A4 sheet of papers worth of text.

Manchester to London Terminals would do that.