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Northern Consultation Dec 2020

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Iskra

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As a commuter between Elsecar and Leeds I'm intrigued by this section;

"ED07 – South and East Yorkshire Local Increase

Sheffield – Leeds via Castleford – Increase of 17 Passenger slots weekday (including 4 evening peak) and 18 Saturday and 7 Sunday"

This would appear to suggest that services would be doubled from hourly to half hourly, which would suit me just fine!

That's good. Seems too good to be true though! Is it even physically possible? I suppose one of the semi-fasts was supposed to move to going Via Westgate, so that might allow it?
 
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Iskra

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Goodness - a half hourly service on the Hallam stopper ! I've been waiting for this for years. Hopefully there will be some semblance of normality by then.

I know, it's like christmas! Half-hourly would to some extent make up for 'the detour' :)
 

Chris NS

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Okay, I'm biased here, but I really hope they persist with Middlebrough-Newcastle via Stillington. As someone who lives in Durham who frequently heads Middlesbrough way, Darlington is a ridiculously roundabout route. However, I'd say the more pressing issue is the lack of service from Chester-le-Street. I'd have though a town that size should have an hourly service at the very least - would a northern service be able to provide this, or is track capacity just too scarce?

On a separate note, I'm surprised the through service from Morpeth to Metrocentre/Hexham/Prudhoe has persisted so long. Given how keen Northern et al were to make use of Livepool-Preston electrification by splitting the Livepool-Blackpool service at Preston, it seemed odd that diesels were run for local services north of Newcastle even though the line was electrified. (IMHO, they should electrify/upgrade the TVL at least as far as the Metrocentre, but that's off-topic).
 

Iskra

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5 services Leeds-Lancaster reduced on a Sunday seems a lot. Is there a reason for that? Is it related to trains starting from Skipton?

Edit: there is an increase of 3 services that appear to extend to Morecambe now so that explains it somewhat.
 

Anvil1984

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5 services Leeds-Lancaster reduced on a Sunday seems a lot. Is there a reason for that? Is it related to trains starting from Skipton?

Edit: there is an increase of 3 services that appear to extend to Morecambe now so that explains it somewhat.

Which already happens


Please can people read the documents. It points out on the Section P document that unless it’s a change highlighted in yellow that it isnt a change just housekeeping on services which are actually running. The isn’t going to be a half hourly Hallam stopper for example
 

Halish Railway

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That's good. Seems too good to be true though! Is it even physically possible? I suppose one of the semi-fasts was supposed to move to going Via Westgate, so that might allow it?
From what I understand the diverted Nottingham to Leeds (and eventually Bradford) will be in addition to the 2tph Hallam Line fast service (one of which going to Lincoln). The diverted service will be a supplement to the hourly CrossCountry service and more so the existing Hallam line fasts are already busy, but that’s mainly because some idiot decided to use new trains with less seats than the existing stock .
 

Anvil1984

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From what I understand the diverted Nottingham to Leeds (and eventually Bradford) will be in addition to the 2tph Hallam Line fast service (one of which going to Lincoln). The diverted service will be a supplement to the hourly CrossCountry service and more so the existing Hallam line fasts are already busy, but that’s mainly because some idiot decided to use new trains with less seats than the existing stock .

Again going off this consultation the service isn't being diverted or extended. Look at the document marked 30th SA. Annex 9 Service Group still has the Leeds to Nottingham explicitly as going via Barnsley. There could be another consultation later on with further amendments for South Yorkshire but it isn't on the cards yet
 

johntea

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Not 2020 but 2021 I read the other day Network Rail have managed to sort out Cattal on the cheap so Leeds - York via Harrogate will be able to run twice hourly...presumably this just means extending the current Knaresborough terminators to carry on to York?
 

Halish Railway

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Network Rail have managed to sort out Cattal on the cheap
Christ that’d be a first.

So Leeds - York via Harrogate will be able to run twice hourly...presumably this just means extending the current Knaresborough terminators to carry on to York?
That sounds like a good idea as there does seem to be enough demand at the weekend for this service (pre-lockdown of course). The main question I’m wondering is whether anyone’s going to get around to a consistent 4tph Leeds to Harrogate service.
 

Anvil1984

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Northern Trains Limited 30th SA.pdf https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...formation-for-operators/sale-of-access-rights

Some more information

I am assuming red is the changes. so they maybe were all changes.

I feel I am banging my head off a brick wall here. You have to use this document in conjunction with the other two documents (the Section P application form and the DEC2020 cover) Some of the changes highlighted in red are just updating the document from when it hasn't been done previously.

For example an easy one

On Section P ED4 "Blackpool North – Bradford Interchange – Increase of 1 passenger slot weekday" is not highlighted in Yellow meaning its a service change which is already running. We can look at the 30th SA document and see yes its highlighted in red so the service has been changed on the document but hen find a Northern timetable (not the current Coronavirus one) or go on realtimetrains and put a Monday to Friday in June in and you will indeed see there is a 2202 Blackpool North to Bradford interchange already running now

If its not highlighted in yellow on the Section P or DEC2020 document its not an actual service change, its just updating the document from previous changes. As it says on page 4 of the Section P

Northern has been through a period of extensive change over the last 2 years especially with Northern coming under new ownership. Due to the extent of the change a housekeeping exercise was undertaken to review the access rights held and ensure that services currently running are described correctly in the tables and of the correct quantum. The lines as below which are not highlighted in yellow are access rights which have been through this exercise. There services are not new for December ’20 and are already running and this exercise is merely to ensure that the track access rights represent Northern’s services correctly
My emphasis, the "highlighted in yellow" doesn't mean the 30th SA document but the other two pieces.
 

CaptainHaddock

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Which already happens


Please can people read the documents. It points out on the Section P document that unless it’s a change highlighted in yellow that it isnt a change just housekeeping on services which are actually running. The isn’t going to be a half hourly Hallam stopper for example

Very strange. There hasn't been a major change on the Sheffield-Barnsley-Leeds stoppers since they were diverted via Castleford back in the 1990s. Why would they even refer to an old change like that in a new consulotation document?
 

Anvil1984

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Very strange. There hasn't been a major change on the Sheffield-Barnsley-Leeds stoppers since they were diverted via Castleford back in the 1990s. Why would they even refer to an old change like that in a new consulotation document?

Because as a lot of the “changes” are just housekeeping on the documents. Maybe things that have been accidentally deleted or omitted on previous documents. Look at the bottom quote from the section P document on my last post and it explains it a little
 

Anvil1984

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Your dedication is admired by all who understand what you're telling people again and again and again :lol:

I just have visions in the lead up of the unravelling of Decembers timetable with me reading “why hasn’t the Hallam Line stoppers been doubled when the document said it would?”. That will take massive restraint not to get banned
 

Greybeard33

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We'll have to wait and see. I no longer commute by rail any more but still retain an interest in this route having endured the misery of peak time travel on it for 9 years. I wonder which TfW services are to be changed?
The rationale for the Ellesmere Port/Chester - Victoria service changes is in the Form P document linked in the OP:
Due to issues with industry performance, capacity and lack of available infrastructure, NTL, has been
actively engaged in wider industry discussions and workstreams looking at this and it is recognised that
trades offs would have to be made across the industry particularly in the Manchester area owing to the
congested infrastructure. As part of the work done in the central Manchester area the changes sought
in this application come from recommendations which have come out of this work following on from
standardisation of the Transport for Wales services. The 1st phase of recommended interventions will
offset changes made to Transport for Wales Chester services. The proposed changes as part of this
application will see Northern’s Ellesmere port service to Leeds (via Manchester) run from Chester in
the morning and to Chester in the evening, picking up stops previously provided by transport for wales
services. These changes are very much part of the industry agreed interventions to improve
performance in the central Manchester area which is a positive step for the industry.
My guess is that "standardisation of the TfW services" means that the Chester - Piccadilly peak extra services will be removed, with the standard hour pattern (hourly N Wales to/from Manchester Airport services) extended through the peaks. This would remove 1tphpd from the Castlefield corridor in the peaks. The residual peak TfW services would run through to the Airport instead of terminating in Piccadilly P13 and reversing in the Mayfield loop, thereby reducing platform dwell time and so further easing congestion.

The diversion of the Ellesmere Port services will maintain the existing quantum of peak trains between Chester and Manchester via Warrington, although some of the intermediate stations will suffer a reduction in peak frequency.

The above Form P quote describes this as the first phase of the Central Manchester interventions. I imagine the mooted diversion of the TfW services to Victoria/Stalybridge instead of Piccadilly/Airport would form part of the second phase (now pushed back to May 2021?), because this would probably require further alterations to Northern services to make the paths available. Any reduction in Northern services through the Castlefield corridor would likely be implemented at the same time.
 

Llandudno

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The rationale for the Ellesmere Port/Chester - Victoria service changes is in the Form P document linked in the OP:

My guess is that "standardisation of the TfW services" means that the Chester - Piccadilly peak extra services will be removed, with the standard hour pattern (hourly N Wales to/from Manchester Airport services) extended through the peaks. This would remove 1tphpd from the Castlefield corridor in the peaks. The residual peak TfW services would run through to the Airport instead of terminating in Piccadilly P13 and reversing in the Mayfield loop, thereby reducing platform dwell time and so further easing congestion.

The diversion of the Ellesmere Port services will maintain the existing quantum of peak trains between Chester and Manchester via Warrington, although some of the intermediate stations will suffer a reduction in peak frequency.

The above Form P quote describes this as the first phase of the Central Manchester interventions. I imagine the mooted diversion of the TfW services to Victoria/Stalybridge instead of Piccadilly/Airport would form part of the second phase (now pushed back to May 2021?), because this would probably require further alterations to Northern services to make the paths available. Any reduction in Northern services through the Castlefield corridor would likely be implemented at the same time.
It would seem strange to improve the TfW North Wales & Chester service to Manchester Airport, thereby creating patronage only for it to be withdrawn 12 months later if the service was rerouted to Manchester Victoria?

Not sure that pulling out of Oxford Road/Piccadilly would go down too well with Chester/Helsby/Frodsham/Runcorn East commuters?
 

Jamesrob637

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Get the Sunday services through Altrincham and Congleton hourly on Sundays after years of waiting! Passenger numbers may have just about risen justifiably by Christmas.
 

Ianno87

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It would seem strange to improve the TfW North Wales & Chester service to Manchester Airport, thereby creating patronage only for it to be withdrawn 12 months later if the service was rerouted to Manchester Victoria?

Not sure that pulling out of Oxford Road/Piccadilly would go down too well with Chester/Helsby/Frodsham/Runcorn East commuters?

Stabilising the Castlefield corridor is inevitably going involve removing/diverting services and not going down too well with somebody.

At least Chester has services to Piccadilly via Altrincham (albeit slower) and the others have a relatively easy change at Earlestown or Newton-le-Willows. Plus concentration of all homeward services from one station rather than two may be a counter-benefit of standardisation.
 

Llandudno

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Stabilising the Castlefield corridor is inevitably going involve removing/diverting services and not going down too well with somebody.

At least Chester has services to Piccadilly via Altrincham (albeit slower) and the others have a relatively easy change at Earlestown or Newton-le-Willows. Plus concentration of all homeward services from one station rather than two may be a counter-benefit of standardisation.
I hear what you are saying, but why improve something and generate new travel opportunities and then take them away 12 months later.

Not sure Chester pax would fancy spending 90+ minutes on a class 150 to get to Piccadilly via Altrincham.
Might be less of an issue if you could use your Chester to Manchester ticket on Metrolink from Altrincham, May not be quicker but at least it would penetrate most parts of Manchester City Centre, meaning that your actual arrival time at your place of work may be roughly the same.

Always seems odd that you can use your train ticket on Metrolink on a Sunday but not on any other day of the week.

The quirks for our (non) integrated ticket system in the UK!
 

Greybeard33

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I hear what you are saying, but why improve something and generate new travel opportunities and then take them away 12 months later.
With air travel predicted to take years to recover to pre-Covid levels, I think the TfW services will be carrying mainly fresh air between Piccadilly and Manchester Airport over the next 12 months!

Extending to the Airport would be a simple way to avoid the idiocy of terminating long distance services in the Piccadilly through platforms during the peak periods.
 

Adam0984

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I think taking the TFW service out of Man Picc would be a mistake but would definitely extend them all to the airport to reduce the dwell time on platform 13. Only issue you have is the loco hauled and space at the Airport, could they go to Stockport instead. The way I'd reduce the castlefield corridor is take the TPEs out for a start
 

Bletchleyite

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I think taking the TFW service out of Man Picc would be a mistake but would definitely extend them all to the airport to reduce the dwell time on platform 13. Only issue you have is the loco hauled and space at the Airport, could they go to Stockport instead. The way I'd reduce the castlefield corridor is take the TPEs out for a start

To me it all comes down to "they shouldn't have built that effing Chord".
 

Adam0984

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To me it all comes down to "they shouldn't have built that effing Chord".
The problem is the chord was linked to big capacity upgrades to the castlefield corridor and Piccadilly which havent happened to make it workable
 

Geeves

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The North Wales trains worked out of Victoria in the past so I imagine that people complained when they went to Piccadilly. The city has changed a lot since then anyway with many more offices now being on the Victoria side of the of the city than in the past not to mention the shops are actually closer at Vic.

The Chester trains that started up from Victoria have been popular since day one.
 
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The North Wales trains worked out of Victoria in the past so I imagine that people complained when they went to Piccadilly. The city has changed a lot since then anyway with many more offices now being on the Victoria side of the of the city than in the past not to mention the shops are actually closer at Vic.

The Chester trains that started up from Victoria have been popular since day one.
I agree with all that you have said.
 

Greybeard33

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I think taking the TFW service out of Man Picc would be a mistake but would definitely extend them all to the airport to reduce the dwell time on platform 13. Only issue you have is the loco hauled and space at the Airport, could they go to Stockport instead. The way I'd reduce the castlefield corridor is take the TPEs out for a start
I don't believe there is platform capacity at the Airport for all the current TfW peak services, even with the loco hauled replaced by a DMU. Nor are there paths to Stockport. However, if the TfW peak services were reduced to 1tph, the same as off-peak, it ought to be possible to fit them in at the Airport. My guess is that that is what is proposed for Dec 2020.
The North Wales trains worked out of Victoria in the past so I imagine that people complained when they went to Piccadilly. The city has changed a lot since then anyway with many more offices now being on the Victoria side of the of the city than in the past not to mention the shops are actually closer at Vic.

The Chester trains that started up from Victoria have been popular since day one.
Once the Northern Chester - Victoria service becomes 1tph all day, as proposed in this consultation, it seems to me that it will no longer be either necessary or appropriate for Transport for Wales to continue operating extra commuter services between Chester and Manchester (entirely in England).
 

markymark2000

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I just want to say that the train which current stops the Northern service running from Chester in the morning peak is the 07:12 TFW departure. This train is normally full and standing. When I have been on it, I have watched people cross over at Helsby from the TFW to the Northern service because they know they will get a seat and save them standing. Unless Northern make this a good 5-6 carriages, I can't see passengers being happy.
 
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