Northern Consultation Dec 2020

cle

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Better to standardize the 2tph Chester to Manchester with the same operator, and from the same station - even if end points differ.

Victoria as a choice seems to help Castlefield (or enable something in its place), and Piccadilly does have the slow to Chester. Not to mention, another route to Warrington and a two distinct Warrington stations. So that adds weight to the split.

Once Salford Central has its Liverpool line platforms rebuilt, this route will be even more useful and closer to many jobs and Deansgate.
 
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markymark2000

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Better to standardize the 2tph Chester to Manchester with the same operator, and from the same station - even if end points differ.

Victoria as a choice seems to help Castlefield (or enable something in its place), and Piccadilly does have the slow to Chester. Not to mention, another route to Warrington and a two distinct Warrington stations. So that adds weight to the split.

Once Salford Central has its Liverpool line platforms rebuilt, this route will be even more useful and closer to many jobs and Deansgate.
I would say that's a valid point but what you are forgetting is that while Chester to Manchester is served by 2 operators, either side of that, the destinations are completely different and splitting the services would cause a lot of upset amongst passengers.

Northern won't extend to Llandudno or Holyhead and TFW won't extend to Leeds.

Also, the competition is fantastic as there are cheaper Northern only fares. Now the franchise is orchestrated by the Welsh Govt, they don't care about anywhere outside Wales including this line. If the link was to be removed, North Wales MPs would go ape.
 

158756

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Better to standardize the 2tph Chester to Manchester with the same operator, and from the same station - even if end points differ.

Victoria as a choice seems to help Castlefield (or enable something in its place), and Piccadilly does have the slow to Chester. Not to mention, another route to Warrington and a two distinct Warrington stations. So that adds weight to the split.

Once Salford Central has its Liverpool line platforms rebuilt, this route will be even more useful and closer to many jobs and Deansgate.
Are the platforms at Salford Central ever likely to be built now? TfW probably wouldn't stop anyway.
 

kieron

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Other than the paragraph in the Form P document for the Northern consultation (for which Greybear33's summary here makes sense to me), has anything been published by Network Rail about plans for TfW in Dec 2020 or beyond?

The notion of standardising TfW services could cover quite a lot, as the North Wales ones are quite irregularly spaced at the moment. It's not really something Northern or their stakeholders would need to consider, though.
 

frodshamfella

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It looks like. The Helsby to E Port goes back to a twice a day shuttle by the looks of it.
Do you think it will be as it was 2 x early morning 2 x afternoon ?

The last return from Ellesmere Port was about 1600 and operated to Warrington BQ, then empty to Lime Street, I wonder if this would be a passenger service in completion ? All be it, it would be quicker to get the stock back to Lime Street via the Halton Curve.
 

Llandudno

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Do you think it will be as it was 2 x early morning 2 x afternoon ?

The last return from Ellesmere Port was about 1600 and operated to Warrington BQ, then empty to Lime Street, I wonder if this would be a passenger service in completion ? All be it, it would be quicker to get the stock back to Lime Street via the Halton Curve.
How long before Ellesmere Port - Helsby becomes a parliamentary one train per week service like Stockport - Stalybridge?
 

Greybeard33

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Do you think it will be as it was 2 x early morning 2 x afternoon ?

The last return from Ellesmere Port was about 1600 and operated to Warrington BQ, then empty to Lime Street, I wonder if this would be a passenger service in completion ? All be it, it would be quicker to get the stock back to Lime Street via the Halton Curve.
In the Dec 2018 timetable, before the Leeds services started, Ellesmere Port had two morning and one evening Northern services, as in the current Working Timetable. Timings were:
From Lime Street via Warrington BQ a 0612
To Helsby d 0619
From Helsby a 0644
To Warrington BQ d 0652
From Helsby a 1900
To Victoria d 1910
http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/liverail/full/ELP/13/05/19

The stock off the 0652 departure ran ECS from Warrington to Wigan NW. The stock for the 1900 arrival was formed from the 1641 Piccadilly to Chester via Northwich and ran ECS from Chester to Helsby.

I suspect the Dec 2020 timetable will be somewhat similar, but the consultation documents have the slots to Warrington and to Victoria replaced by slots to Helsby and to Lime Street via Warrington (not stated which is morning and which evening).

The main 30th SA document, Annex 11, shows only one weekday slot each way from/to Helsby, but that is contradicted by the Form P and "Dec 20 Changes 4" documents, which both state an increase of one slot each way, relative to the May 2020 Working Timetable that already has one slot each way (for the early morning shuttle). We will have to wait and see!
 

Anvil1984

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In the Dec 2018 timetable, before the Leeds services started, Ellesmere Port had two morning and one evening Northern services, as in the current Working Timetable. Timings were:
From Lime Street via Warrington BQ a 0612
To Helsby d 0619
From Helsby a 0644
To Warrington BQ d 0652
From Helsby a 1900
To Victoria d 1910
http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/liverail/full/ELP/13/05/19

The stock off the 0652 departure ran ECS from Warrington to Wigan NW. The stock for the 1900 arrival was formed from the 1641 Piccadilly to Chester via Northwich and ran ECS from Chester to Helsby.

I suspect the Dec 2020 timetable will be somewhat similar, but the consultation documents have the slots to Warrington and to Victoria replaced by slots to Helsby and to Lime Street via Warrington (not stated which is morning and which evening).

The main 30th SA document, Annex 11, shows only one weekday slot each way from/to Helsby, but that is contradicted by the Form P and "Dec 20 Changes 4" documents, which both state an increase of one slot each way, relative to the May 2020 Working Timetable that already has one slot each way (for the early morning shuttle). We will have to wait and see!
Well they technically have added 1 as the Monday - Friday Ellesmere Port to Helsby shuttle isn’t shown in the current Track Access document (https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/27925/consolidated-agreement-arriva-rail-north.pdf page 197). Problem is it should have been +2, one for current service and one for future
 

frodshamfella

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In the Dec 2018 timetable, before the Leeds services started, Ellesmere Port had two morning and one evening Northern services, as in the current Working Timetable. Timings were:
From Lime Street via Warrington BQ a 0612
To Helsby d 0619
From Helsby a 0644
To Warrington BQ d 0652
From Helsby a 1900
To Victoria d 1910
http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/liverail/full/ELP/13/05/19

The stock off the 0652 departure ran ECS from Warrington to Wigan NW. The stock for the 1900 arrival was formed from the 1641 Piccadilly to Chester via Northwich and ran ECS from Chester to Helsby.

I suspect the Dec 2020 timetable will be somewhat similar, but the consultation documents have the slots to Warrington and to Victoria replaced by slots to Helsby and to Lime Street via Warrington (not stated which is morning and which evening).

The main 30th SA document, Annex 11, shows only one weekday slot each way from/to Helsby, but that is contradicted by the Form P and "Dec 20 Changes 4" documents, which both state an increase of one slot each way, relative to the May 2020 Working Timetable that already has one slot each way (for the early morning shuttle). We will have to wait and see!
No I'm referring to before the Manchester trains appeared. Basically shuttles from Helsby to E Port. There were 2 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon with the first service and last beginning and terminating at Warrington BQ. I suspect something like this will reappear.
 

Anvil1984

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No I'm referring to before the Manchester trains appeared. Basically shuttles from Helsby to E Port. The odd service began and terminated at Warrington BQ. I suspect something like this will reappear.
The documents for December 2020 show for passenger service
1 slot daily Liverpool to Ellesmere Port Monday - Saturday
1 slot daily Helsby to Ellesmere Port Monday to Saturday
1 slot daily Ellesmere Port to Liverpool Monday to FRIDAY
1 slot daily Ellesmere Port to Helsby Monday to Friday, 2 on Saturday

However as the branch seems to get 3 trains a day in each direction then something seems to be missing (probably accidentally) and we probably wont know for sure where this begins / terminates until September / October when the timetable comes out
 

Greybeard33

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No I'm referring to before the Manchester trains appeared. Basically shuttles from Helsby to E Port. There were 2 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon with the first service and last beginning and terminating at Warrington BQ. I suspect something like this will reappear.
The Northern services from Chester/Ellesmere Port to Victoria/Leeds commenced at the 19 May 2019 timetable change. The times I quoted were prior to that change, when there were no Northern passenger services between Chester and Helsby and just the one evening service per day from Ellesmere Port to Victoria. The Liverail link I posted shows all the services to/from Ellesmere Port on Monday 13 May 2019. I think you are recalling an even earlier service pattern, before the May 2018 timetable change.
 

frodshamfella

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The Northern services from Chester/Ellesmere Port to Victoria/Leeds commenced at the 19 May 2019 timetable change. The times I quoted were prior to that change, when there were no Northern passenger services between Chester and Helsby and just the one evening service per day from Ellesmere Port to Victoria. The Liverail link I posted shows all the services to/from Ellesmere Port on Monday 13 May 2019. I think you are recalling an even earlier service pattern, before the May 2018 timetable change.
Yes I am.
 

frodshamfella

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The documents for December 2020 show for passenger service
1 slot daily Liverpool to Ellesmere Port Monday - Saturday
1 slot daily Helsby to Ellesmere Port Monday to Saturday
1 slot daily Ellesmere Port to Liverpool Monday to FRIDAY
1 slot daily Ellesmere Port to Helsby Monday to Friday, 2 on Saturday

However as the branch seems to get 3 trains a day in each direction then something seems to be missing (probably accidentally) and we probably wont know for sure where this begins / terminates until September / October when the timetable comes out
Yes this is similar to what it used to be. Although there was 4 a day Mon to Sat. Have to wait and see.
 

cle

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Are the platforms at Salford Central ever likely to be built now? TfW probably wouldn't stop anyway.
I thought they were approved now, and more likely than ever (pre-Covid caveat) - I'd expect most services to stop, as per Oxford Road - but its usefulness is a bit chicken and egg so we'll see.

All the New Bailey space has been hugely popular, and the Granada/WPP developments will be done soon too so that 'quarter' will be even more full of some of the attractive employers in town. Plus of course the footbridge to Spinningfields.

Key would be tidying up the station overall, and safety/pleasantry perceptions, to drive use.
 

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