Northern Consultation Dec 2020

[MPT156]

First post. Hope it is in the right place. I haven't seen any reference to the consultation process which suggests large changes in the north east in December 2020

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...formation-for-operators/sale-of-access-rights (open at "current track access consultations")

Proposed changes mainly in the north-east.
Morpeth - Carlisle to be split Morpeth - Newcastle and Newcastle - Carlisle
Nunthorpe - Hexham to be split Nunthorpe - Middlesbrough, Middlesbrough - Newcastle and Newcastle - Hexham
A new service via Hartlepool Middlesbrough - Newcastle - Carlisle
Various changes on the Whitby line

Also track access application for Newcastle - Middlesbrough via Stillington

 

[GNERman]

Welcome to the forum.

Funnily enough I was looking at this earlier today. The way i've read it is that they've entirely given up with the original "fast" service from Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Stillington/ECML, and are instead looking to run 2tph via the Durham Coast; one stopper (ie the existing service) and one semi-fast service.

I assume these will be of a similar stopping pattern to the couple of "fast" services that are in May's timetable; Thornaby, Stockton, Hartlepool and Sunderland only.

 

[Class195]

What are the changes to the Whitby line?

Have they looked at making the late evening connections at Middlesbrough more favourably?

 

[Ryry]

What are the changes to the Whitby line?

Have they looked at making the late evening connections at Middlesbrough more favourably?

I was wondering this too, they seems to (pre lockdown) more services to and from Whitby which was better.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's not a document with that kind of detail. The Network Rail website continues to be a uniformly awful way of accessing information so I've attached what is probably the most important document. I would encourage people to read it rather than post "what I think they should do"

 

[Halish Railway]

Welcome to the forum.

Funnily enough I was looking at this earlier today. The way i've read it is that they've entirely given up with the original "fast" service from Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Stillington/ECML, and are instead looking to run 2tph via the Durham Coast; one stopper (ie the existing service) and one semi-fast service.

I think 2tph via the Durham coast (one of which being semi-fast) and 1tph via Stillington (Northern Connect) was always the plan. As the OP suggests, the track access application for Stillington is still in place, it’s probably difficult to find a path due to the at-grade junction at Ferryhill and the slower performance of a 158 when compared to the trains that it will be sharing a path with.

(I can’t find the interactive map showing the Northern franchise improvements to prove this).

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Interesting stuff for those of us who use the TVL regularly. As has been mentioned in the post about the line, whilst the doubling of service west of Hexham was both needed and welcomed, the service east of Hexham and in the Newcastle area needs sorted - it’s currently a mish mash with 3 per hour because of the Hexham terminators ensuring certain places have a link to the Metro Centre.

Be interesting to see how the Stillington application goes, given it never happened last year!

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's happening with the Chathill Flyer? That doc seems to remove it from the through service but not put it back in as a shuttle?

 

[_toommm_]

Also interesting that the Ellesmere Port services will run to/from Chester; which by the sounds of it will remove its direct link from Manchester and Leeds.

 

[_toommm_]

What's happening with the Chathill Flyer? That doc seems to remove it from the through service but not put it back in as a shuttle?

Towards the bottom it says there’s a decrease of one slot between Carlisle and Chathill and one slot between Chathill and Carlisle; whilst there’s an increase of one slot between Newcastle and Chathill (plus one evening peak) so it looks to just be a shuttle now as opposed to going any further.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Also interesting that the Ellesmere Port services will run to/from Chester; which by the sounds of it will remove its direct link from Manchester and Leeds.

It looks like. The Helsby to E Port goes back to a twice a day shuttle by the looks of it.

 

[30907]

I was wondering this too, they seems to (pre lockdown) more services to and from Whitby which was better.

Whitby and Nunthorpe will be basically self-contained, with the Commondale and Battersby terminators (which were only ever in marginal time) going. As far as I can see, no change in basic frequency.

 

[darloscott]

Lots of splitting services in the hunt for reliability - I wonder if this is an experiment that could be spread wider across the network if successful.
Good to see the fast service up the coast, and another application for the Stillington line version too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lots of splitting services in the hunt for reliability - I wonder if this is an experiment that could be spread wider across the network if successful.

Hopefully the timetable book will be hefty enough to belt WMT around the head with it to make that point

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It looks like. The Helsby to E Port goes back to a twice a day shuttle by the looks of it.

Seems to be reverting to the pattern before May 2019, with a Liverpool-Warrington-Ellesmere Port kicking off the local shuttle.
Diverting the peak services to Chester plugs important gaps in the Victoria-Chester timetable.
It alludes to changes in the TfW Manchester-Chester service (hinting that NT will take over some stops from TfW).
Does this herald a diversion of the TfW service to Victoria?
Presumably the TfW LHCS diagrams will disappear.

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps we’ll see more Northern services in the west end bays at Newcastle, firstly because more services are split, and secondly that TPE services are now too long.

 

[Anvil1984]

Perhaps we’ll see more Northern services in the west end bays at Newcastle, firstly because more services are split, and secondly that TPE services are now too long.

Seriously I hope not (although they probably / definitely will), they're a bloody nightmare to get in / out of due to having to cross the fast lines serving ECML to get to the slow lines for the Tyne Valley and the Coast.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Seems to be reverting to the pattern before May 2019, with a Liverpool-Warrington-Ellesmere Port kicking off the local shuttle.
Diverting the peak services to Chester plugs important gaps in the Victoria-Chester timetable.
It alludes to changes in the TfW Manchester-Chester service (hinting that NT will take over some stops from TfW).
Does this herald a diversion of the TfW service to Victoria?
Presumably the TfW LHCS diagrams will disappear.

We'll have to wait and see. I no longer commute by rail any more but still retain an interest in this route having endured the misery of peak time travel on it for 9 years. I wonder which TfW services are to be changed?

 

[_toommm_]

Presumably the TfW LHCS diagrams will disappear.

They were planned to switch over to MK4 coaches, then go back to units. I'm of the opinion that they might not switch to MK4s as TfW will want to get training done as safely and as soon as possible for the Holyhead to Cardiff expresses.

 

[Ianno87]

Seriously I hope not (although they probably / definitely will), they're a bloody nightmare to get in / out of due to having to cross the fast lines serving ECML to get to the slow lines for the Tyne Valley and the Coast.

Better than having too many trains in the through platforms for them to handle, which would be a bigger nightmare.

At least splitting paths across Newcastle gives the opportunity to re-time services to fit slots crossing the ECML rather than having to thread into particular paths elsewhere.

 

[Anvil1984]

It depends. I don't think it will be that easy. We are also presuming that because services are split into the Newcastle - Morpeth, Newcastle - Carlisle, Newcastle - Hexham (with the one service running through from Carlisle - Middlesbrough) that the diagrams are self contained. This might not be the case, it might be the case of a service coming in from Morpeth and sitting 10 minutes before going elsewhere and splitting the headcode. Obviously no one will until the actual timetable comes out

 

[bramling]

Hopefully the timetable book will be hefty enough to belt WMT around the head with it to make that point

The industry has been here before, Central Trains for a start. Corporate memory doesn’t last forever unfortunately.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

As a commuter between Elsecar and Leeds I'm intrigued by this section;

"ED07 – South and East Yorkshire Local Increase

Sheffield – Leeds via Castleford – Increase of 17 Passenger slots weekday (including 4 evening peak) and 18 Saturday and 7 Sunday"

This would appear to suggest that services would be doubled from hourly to half hourly, which would suit me just fine!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

From December 2020:

In Summary: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...formation-for-operators/sale-of-access-rights

Increases:

Saltburn- Bishop Auckland – Increase in 1 passenger
slot Weekday and Saturday

Darlington – Saltburn – increase in 1 passenger slo
t weekday and Saturday

Middlesbrough- Whitby – Increase in 3 passenger slo
ts weekday and Saturday (including 1
evening peak)

Whitby- Middlesbrough – Increase in 1 passenger slo
t weekday and Saturday

Nunthorpe- Middlesbrough – Increase in 12 passenger
slots passenger slot weekday and
Saturday (including 3 morning peak)

Middlesbrough- Nunthorpe – Increase in 11 passenger
slots weekday and Saturday (including
4 evening peak)

Carlisle – Newcastle – Increase in 4 passenger slot
s weekday and Saturday (including 2
morning peak)

Carlisle – Middlesbrough – Increase in 9 passenger
slots weekday and Saturday (including 2
morning peak). Reduction in 1 passenger slot Sunda
ys

Newcastle – Carlisle – Increase in 6 passenger slot
s weekday. Increase in 4 passenger slots
Saturday

Middlesbrough- Carlisle – Increase in 10 passenger
slots weekday and Saturday. Reduction in
2 passenger slots Sunday

Hexham – Newcastle – Increase in 10 passenger slots
weekdays and 11 Saturday

Newcastle – Chat hill – Increase in Increase in 1 p
assenger slot weekday and Saturday
(including 1 evening peak)

Newcastle – Hexham – Increase in 11 passenger slots
weekday and Saturday (Including 2
additional evening peak)

Newcastle – Metro centre – Increase in 3 passenger
slots weekday and Saturday

Middlesbrough- Carlisle – Increase in 10 passenger
slots weekday (including 3 evening peak)
, 11 on a Saturday and a reduction of 2 on a Sunday

Middlesbrough- Newcastle – Increase in 17 passenger
slots weekday (including 2 additional
morning peak) and 16 Saturday

Newcastle – Middlesbrough – Increase in 16 passenge
r slots weekday and Saturday (including
4 evening peak) (new quantum for dec 20, agreed by
PMO)

Middlesbrough- Newcastle – Increase in 17 passenger
slots weekday (new quantum for dec
20, agreed by PMO)

Nunthorpe- Carlisle via Sunderland - Increase in 2
passenger slots Sunday


Saltburn- Bishop Auckland – Increase in 1 passenger
slot Weekday and Saturday

Metro centre- Morpeth – Increase in 1 passenger slo
t Saturday and Sunday

Morpeth- Newcastle – Increase in 13 passenger slots
weekday and Saturday (including 1
morning peak) and increase of 1 on a Sunday

Newcastle- Morpeth – Increase in 12 passenger slots
weekday and Saturday (including 3
evening peak) and an increase of 2 on a Sunday (al
so combine 1 sat Newcastle-morpeth slot
and remove line)

Harrogate- Leeds – Increase in 1 passenger slot wee
kday and Saturday

Leeds- York via Harrogate – Increase of 1 passenger
slot passenger slot weekday and Saturday

York-Leeds via Harrogate – Increase of 2 passenger
slots weekdays (including 1 morning peak)

Hebden Bridge – York via Bradford – Increase in 1 p
assenger slot weekday and Saturday

Manchester Victoria- Leeds – Increase in 1 passenge
r slot weekday (including 1 morning peak)

Leeds- Manchester Victoria – Increase in 1 passenge
r slot weekday

Leeds- Halifax – Increase in 1 passenger slot weekd
ay and Saturday

Blackpool North – Bradford Interchange – Increase o
f 1 passenger slot weekday

York- Blackpool North – Increase of 2 passenger slo
ts weekdays

Blackburn – Blackpool North – Increase in 1 passeng
er slot weekday and Saturday

Lancaster – Skipton – Increase in 1 passenger slot
weekday and Saturday

Morecambe – Leeds via Lancaster – Increase in 3 pas
senger slots Sunday

Hull- Bradford interchange via Leeds and Selby – In
crease in 1 passenger slot Saturday


Manchester Victoria- Chester – Increase in 1 Passen
ger slot weekday

Chester – Manchester Victoria – Increase in 2 Passe
nger slots weekday (including 1 morning
peak)


Wigan North Western – Leeds – Increase in 3 Passeng
er slots weekday and Saturday

Leeds- Wigan North Western - Increase in 3 Passenge
r slots weekday and Saturday including
1 evening peak)

Leeds- Sheffield via Moorthorpe – Increase of 1 Pas
senger slot Saturday

Knottingley – Leeds via Wakefield Westgate – Increa
se of 1 Passenger slots Sunday

Bridlington- Hull – Increase in 1 Passenger slots w
eekday and Saturday

Doncaster – Hull via Goole – Increase in 11 Passeng
er slots weekday and Saturday (including
4 additional evening peak)

Hull- Doncaster via Goole – Increase in 15 Passenge
r slots weekday and Saturday (including 1
additional morning peak)

Sheffield- Hull via Goole – Increase in 12 Passenge
r slots weekday and Saturday (including 4
evening peaks and a reduction of 1 morning peak)

Sheffield- Scarborough – Increase in 12 Passenger s
lots weekday and Saturday (including 4
additional morning peak)

Scarborough- Sheffield – Increase in 10 Passenger s
lots weekday and Saturday

Hull – Adwick via Doncaster – Increase of 1 Passeng
er slots Saturday


Doncaster- Goole – Increase 3 Passenger slots weekd
ay and Saturday

Goole- Hull – Increase in 3 Passenger slots weekday
and Saturday

Doncaster- Sheffield – Increase in 15 Passenger slo
ts weekday and Saturday (including 4
evening peak)

Sheffield- Doncaster – Increase in 14 Passenger slo
ts weekday and Saturday (including 2
additional morning peaks and 4 evening peak)

Hull- York via Sherburn in Elmet – Increase in 1 Pa
ssenger slots Sunday

Selby- York via Sherburn in Elmet – Increase in 1 P
assenger slots Sunday

Scarborough- York via Hull – Increase in 1 Passenge
r slots weekday and Saturday
Sheffield – Leeds via Barnsley – Increase of 13 Pas
senger slots weekday (including 2 morning
peak) and 12 on a Saturday and 1 on a Sunday

Leeds- Sheffield via Barnsley – Increase in 14 Pass
enger slots weekday and Saturday (including
2 morning peaks and 3 evening peak)

Leeds- Sheffield via Castleford- Increase in 19 Pas
senger slots weekday (including 4 morning
peak), 19 Saturday and 8 Sunday

Retford High level – Nottingham via Sheffield – Inc
rease in 1 Passenger slots weekday and
Saturday (including 1 evening peak)

Sheffield – Leeds via Castleford – Increase of 17 P
assenger slots weekday (including 4 evening
peak) and 18 Saturday and 7 Sunday

Leeds – Sheffield via Barnsley – Increase of 6 Pass
enger slots weekday (including 2 morning
peaks and 1 evening peak, 5 Saturday and 9 Sunday


Sheffield – Leeds via Barnsley – increase in 5 Pass
enger slots weekday (including 2 morning
peak), 7 Saturday and 7 Sunday

Ellesmere Port – Helsby – Increase in 1 Passenger s
lots weekday

Helsby- Ellesmere Port – Increase in 1 Passenger sl
ots weekday

Ellesmere port – Manchester Victoria – Amend to Ell
esmere port – Liverpool Lime Street (1
weekday)


Reduction:

Middlesbrough- Saltburn – reduction in 1 passenger
slot weekday and Saturday

Saltburn – Middlesbrough – reduction in 1 passenger
slot weekday and Saturday

Darlington – Nunthorpe – Reduction in 1 passenger s
lot weekday and Saturday and remove
line

Middlesbrough- Bishop Auckland – Reduction in 1 pas
senger slot weekday and Saturday

Middlesbrough – Darlington – Redundant line – remov
e

Darlington – Whitby – Reduction is 1 passenger slot
weekday and Saturday


Newcastle- Whitby – Reduction in 1 passenger slot w
eekday and Saturday

Darlington – Bishop Auckland – reduction in 1 passe
nger slot weekdays and Sundays

Carlisle – Morpeth – Reduction in 11 passenger slot
s weekday and Saturday and remove line

Morpeth – Carlisle – Reduction in 12 passenger slot
s weekday and 11 Saturday – remove line

Chathill – Carlisle – Reduction in 2 passenger slot
s weekday

Chathill – Newcastle – Reduction in 2 passenger slo
ts weekday

Metro centre – Stockton – Reduction in 1 passenger
slot weekday and Saturday and remove
line

Carlisle – Chathill – Reduction in 1 passenger slot
weekday and Saturday and remove line

Newcastle – Battersby - remove line

Whitby- Hexham – Remove 1 passenger slot weekday an
d Saturday and remove line

Battersby – Metro centre – Remove 1 passenger slot
weekday and remove line

Hartlepool – Hexham – Remove 1 passenger slot weekd
ay and Saturday and remove line

Common dale- Hexham – Remove 1 passenger slot weekd
ay and Saturday and remove line

Hexham – Common dale – Remove 1 passenger slot week
day and Saturday and remove line

Hexham – Battersby – Remove 1 passenger slot weekda
y and Saturday and remove line

Hexham – Middlesbrough – Reduction in 1 passenger s
lot weekday and Saturday (reduce off
peak and increase morning peak by 1)

Hexham- Nunthorpe – Reduction in 5 passenger slots
weekday and Saturday and remove line

Hexham – Whitby – Reduction in 2 passenger slots we
ekday and Saturday and remove line

Battersby – Prudhoe – Reduction in 1 passenger slot
Saturday

Middlesbrough – Hexham – Reduction in 2 passenger s
lots weekdays and 1 on a Saturday

Newcastle- Middlesbrough – Reduction in 1 passenger
slot weekday and Saturday and remove
line

Newcastle- Nunthorpe – Reduction in 1 passenger slo
t weekday and an increase of 1 on a
Sunday

Nunthorpe- Hexham – Reduction in 6 passenger slots
weekday and 5 on a Saturday and
remove line

Nunthorpe- Metro centre – Reduction in 3 passenger
slots weekday and Saturday and remove
line

Carlisle- Nunthorpe – Reduction of 2 passenger slot
s weekday and Saturday and reduction of
1 on a Sunday

Hexham – Saltburn – Reduction of 1 passenger slot w
eekday and Saturday and remove line

Saltburn- Nunthorpe- Reduction in 1 passenger slo
t weekday and Saturday and remove line

Prudhoe- Morpeth – Reduction in 1 passenger slot we
ekday and Saturday and remove line


Horsforth- Leeds Reduction in 2 passenger slots wee
kday and Saturday (including reduction
of 1 morning peak)

Knaresborough – Leeds – Reduction of 1 passenger sl
ot weekday and Saturday

Leeds Horsforth- Reduction of 2 passenger slots wee
kday and Saturday

Leeds- Knaresborough – Reduction of 1 passenger slo
t weekday and Saturday

Leeds – Carlisle – no additional quantum however of
f peak reduced by 1 and evening peak
increased by 1

Lancaster – Leeds Reduction in 2 passenger slots we
ekday and Saturday and reduction of 5 on
a Sunday

Leeds-Lancaster – Reduction in 1 passenger slot wee
kday (including reduction of 1 evening
peak) and Saturday and a reduction of 5 on a Sunday

Leeds-Morecambe via Lancaster – Reduction in 1 pass
enger slot weekday and Saturday and
an increase in 4 on a Sunday

Hebden Bridge – Leeds via Bradford – Reduction in 1
passenger slot weekday (including
reduction of 1 morning peak)

Leeds- Hebden Bridge – Reduction in 2 passenger slo
ts weekdays and 1 on a Saturday

Manchester Victoria- Leeds – remove 1 and moved to
other line – redundant line

Leeds- Manchester Victoria - remove 1 and moved to
other line – redundant line

Leeds- Blackpool North – Reduction of 1 passenger s
lot weekday and Saturday

Blackburn- York – Reduction in 13 passenger slots S
unday

Halifax – Hull - Change from contingent to firm rig
hts and remove from 2.2 table

Hull-Halifax – change from contingent to firm right
s and remove from 2.2 table and reduce
passenger slot on a Saturday by 1


Manchester Victoria- Ellesmere Port – Reduction in
1 Passenger slot weekday

Ellesmere Port – Manchester Victoria – Reduction in
1 Passenger slot weekday

Remove Halifax- Hull and Hull – Halifax passenger s
lots and move to 2.1 as above


Leeds – Wigan Wallgate – Reduction of 3 Passenger s
lots weekday and a Saturday (including
reduction in 2 evening peak)

Wigan Wallgate – Leeds – Reduction in 3 Passenger s
lots weekday and Saturday

Marsden – Huddersfield – redundant line – remove

Huddersfield – Marsden – Reduction of 3 Passenger s
lots weekday
Hull-Scarborough – Reduction of 11 Passenger slots
weekday and Saturday

Scarborough – Hull – Reduction in 12 Passenger slot
s weekday and Saturday

Sheffield – Beverley – Reduction in 2 Passenger slo
ts weekday and Saturday (including a
reduction of 1 morning peak) and remove line

Beverley- Sheffield via Goole – Reduction in 1 Pass
enger slots weekday and Saturday

Sheffield- Bridlington – Reduction of 11 Passenger
slots weekday and Saturday including a
reduction of 3 morning peak and 3 evening peaks

Hull- Sheffield – Reduction of 11 Passenger slots w
eekday and Saturday (including a reduction
of 2 morning peak and 4 evening peak)

Bridlington- Sheffield – Reduction of 10 Passenger
slots weekday and Saturday (including a
reduction of 4 evening peak)

Amend Bridlington – Sheffield to Scarborough – Shef
field (1 Mon-Sat)

Amend Sheffield- Bridlington to Sheffield- Hull (1
Mon- Sat)

Doncaster – Adwick – No overall change in quantum o
ther than reduced off peak by 1 and
move to morning peak.

York- Hull via Sherburn in Elmet – no overall chang
e in quantum – increase off peak by 2,
reduce morning peak by 2
Retford High Level – Sheffield – Reduction in 1 Pas
senger slots weekday and Saturday
(including reduction in 1 morning peak)

Sheffield – York via Sherburn in Elmet – no overall
change in quantum – reduce off peak by 1
and increase morning peak by 1

York- Sheffield via Sherburn in Elmet - no overall
change in quantum – reduce off peak by 1
and increase evening peak by 1

Sheffield – Gainsborough central via Retford – no o
verall change in quantum – reduce off peak
by 1 and increase evening peak by 1

Gainsborough central – Sheffield via Retford – no o
verall change in quantum – reduce off peak
by 1 and increase morning peak by 1
Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield – Reduction in
5 Passenger slots weekday and remove
line

Huddersfield- Manchester Piccadilly – Reduction in
1 Passenger slots weekday and remove
line

Huddersfield- Marsden – Reduction in 3 Passenger slots weekday

In case anyone can't see it.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It looks like a trade off. Some services have been increased in exchange that others have been cut. Lots of extra services around South Yorkshire and north East. Alot of it seems logical.

 

[Anvil1984]

As a commuter between Elsecar and Leeds I'm intrigued by this section;

"ED07 – South and East Yorkshire Local Increase

Sheffield – Leeds via Castleford – Increase of 17 Passenger slots weekday (including 4 evening peak) and 18 Saturday and 7 Sunday"

This would appear to suggest that services would be doubled from hourly to half hourly, which would suit me just fine!

Not sure that is the case. Some of the stuff quoted as reductions / increases are already running. Basically if it’s highlighted in yellow on the document it’s new changes. White is already running and just general housekeeping

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

White is current which has been changed and yellow is new?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

How many of the scarborough routes were cancelled in the last year might explain the cuts?

 

[Anvil1984]

White is current which has been changed and yellow is new?

The wording from the form P document is (Highlighted Yellow = new change for dec 20. Unhighlighted = already running). So yeah that’s the gist

 

[yorksrob]

Goodness - a half hourly service on the Hallam stopper ! I've been waiting for this for years. Hopefully there will be some semblance of normality by then.