Northern Crossrail Leeds-Manchester receives PM backing

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Plethora, 27 Jul 2019.

  1. Plethora

    Plethora Member

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    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49132477

    (Apologies if this already has a thread. I did do a search, but the only historic thread I could find was locked.)

    I suppose we may have to wait a while to get any real news on the proposed route, but I think people would agree it's needed. What might a sensible route look like?
     
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  3. DanTrain

    DanTrain Member

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    Is this like the Garden Bridge? Or will it be known as Boris Rail even though it’s not his idea? Or perhaps his cronies will by sheet coincidence end up with the contracts for it? Call me a cynic but Boris has announced rafts of ‘new’ ideas in the last two days and frankly I don’t see them going anywhere until Brexit is done and dusted one way or another. Certainly not unit November as I think we know what the government will be focussed on up until then at least.

    For the record I would actually quite like to see a Brexit-free Boris, I think he’d bring some life back to the whole Northern Powerhouse idea and might at lest get things moving!
     
  4. Plethora

    Plethora Member

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    Agreed, but it's a big step forward from May's government that didn't even discuss the issue. The possible downside is that it may distract from desirable Leeds and Manchester Station upgrades that could deliver benefits in the medium term.
     
  5. Peter Fox

    Peter Fox Member

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    OK. Here goes. (Every Boris-related issue will be loaded with over-simplification and odours of fantasy.)
    (1) Leeds isn't the be all and end all of 'the north beyond Manchester'
    (2) Freight needs investment in depots not speed. (And solid long-term government commitment. [Oh dear!])
    (3) If H2S is anything to go by the terminals will be somewhere stuck by a forgotten canal. What about a direct link to (say) Manchester Airport. [Laugh! I thought they'd never dry.]
    (4) The BBC article has Labour quoted saying the Manchester to Leeds distance is the same as London's Central Line. Really? Also daily passenger numbers would be interesting. (Suppose 10 times the number of people travel daily on the Central line as between M and L then doesn't that mean ten times the value per minute saved by acceleration?) [Just facts, no regional bias. Anyway the two things are like comparing Weetabix and Caviar.]
    (5) The 'Northern powerhouse' thing was an attempt to re-industrialise Yorkshire, Durham and Northumberland. (Manchester was already a 'darling'.) So how does this turn Hull, Gateshead or Middlesborough into a thriving economy? (Hello Scunthorpe! I bet you're hanging out the bunting already.)

    The Garden Bridge cost taxpayers at least £30M, straight down the drain, a great deal of which Big Jobbie authorised while having official advice against. (Then he refused to answer to the enquiry.) The trouble is that he spawns cockroach ideas that even when you think you've stamped them out still won't die. His weakness is facts from people who know, but so many idiots (including my own MP, ****ty Patel) are right behind him.
     
  6. Emyr

    Emyr Member

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    This repeats the mistakes of HS2: Highlighting speed as the primary virtue over capacity, giving those who oppose it an easy argument that it's a waste of money.

    If HS2 takes a (mostly) new alignment due to the challenges of smoothing out the current alignment to support higher speed, there will be by definition an increase in capacity. This capacity would increase speeds even if build to the same rated speed as current lines since the freight, express and stopping flows could be separated.
     
  7. Plethora

    Plethora Member

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    Agreed, albeit high speed rail comes at the expense of reduced calling points, so there will be no separation of freight and local services. Freight would likely still benefit, provided that the ancillary infrastructure (e.g. Depots as mentioned above) was provided to permit it.
     
  8. Djgr

    Djgr Member

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    (4) The BBC article has Labour quoted saying the Manchester to Leeds distance is the same as London's Central Line. Really?

    Well according to Wiki that's indeed the case. Assume that Wiki are measuring from furthest west to furthest east and not adding, say, Hainault branch mileage to Epping.

    Of course Leeds Manchester has the Pennines in the way, not that Boris would probably realise.
     
  9. jagardner1984

    jagardner1984 Member

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    It is positive that we are talking about more High Speed Rail rather than more interminable discussion about will they / won't they on HS2. (As a side point, purely on capacity it seems to me HS2 is essential).

    Given a 15-20 year period to design and build, a more welcome proposal would be for X miles of new High Speed rail to be built each control period for the next 50 years. Then we'd stand a chance on the economic and environmental necessities of the future.
     
  10. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    Andrew Gilligan has been appointed as Boris's transport adviser to make sure HS2 is stop and to promise to pay for HS3 in a few years time, when it will conveniently get cancelled when the money is needed for construction.

    DfT need to provide circa 4bn per annum for HS2 and Boris is desperate to use that money to buy votes for a GE in less than 3 years.

    It will also be used as an excuse not to fund Transpennine electrification in the short term as well.
     
  11. Greetlander

    Greetlander Member

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    My cynical anti-Boris heart will however leap for joy if there's a sniff of a HS3 station in (or about) Halifax. I'm fickle like that.
     
  12. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    Breaking news: Politician makes empty promise about something that won't happen in his political career. Next!
     
  13. Greetlander

    Greetlander Member

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    oh don't worry - I'm not holding my breath. Here in Australia, both major parties get very excited about Brisbane-Sydney-Melbourne high speed rail just prior to an election. It's still quicker to walk.
     
  14. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    You could probably walk / swim from Halifax to all three of those Aussie cites before a spade hits ground for HS3. However if Prime Minister Johnson announces that it will also include a spur to Baildon, then I will become a believer.... ;)
     
  15. AntoniC

    AntoniC Member

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    He is a typical politician , all mouth and no trousers.
    Where is HMG going to find all this money from ? , as a Civil Servant I have been told that the most I can expect for a payrise this year will be 1% ( or upto 2 % if I give up certain precious Terms & Conditions) and this payrise was due on 30th June 2019 !.
    He is promising all things to everyone in the hope that he can get his Brexit deal through by 31at October and if it fails , like the politician he is he will blame everyone else because they couldnt deliver on his plans.
    And yes, I detest the Tories with a passion as a Lib Dem supporter and a Remainer.
     
  16. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    If the media is accurately predicting Its significant he isn't pledging to fund the whole route yet, just the Manchester-Leeds section.

    As I understand it the whole of TfTN plan are £39bn
    The NPR route is £17bn
    The Manchester-Leeds section is £2bn

    So hes only giving a £2bn spending commitment at the moment
     
  17. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    I can understand the rush to announce new infrastructure plans, and choosing NPR as the first project.
    But there is no clarity on the route, or how the new line will integrate into the existing network.
    Or even if it is additional to the existing £2.9bn trans-Pennine upgrade plan from York to Manchester, or replaces it.
    Does it reach Liverpool via Manchester Airport and HS2?
    What's the alignment of the inevitable new Pennine tunnel?
    Does it solve the Castlefield Corridor problem?

    Politicians are desperate for instant progress so they can cut the opening ribbon.
    It could be a decade, even with a following wind, before any useable trackage appears on this project.
    It must be the least "shovel ready" project imaginable.
    Network Rail must be rolling their eyes in bewilderment over the range of solutions they are supposed to be working on.
    And does this spend replace that for HS2 Phase 2b?

    By the way, "Northern Crossrail" is the Labour fantasy project, not the Conservative one.
     
  18. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    I'd be gobsmacked if you could build a new high speed line from Manchester to Leeds for a mere £2bn!
     
  19. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    It isn't high speed as we think of it now though, they are thinking around 125mph running speed for this line.

    Circa 45 miles (will be less as it will run on existing tracks in city centres) means around £50m a mile.
     
  20. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    My comment applies to any new line of route throughout between the two cities whether high speed or not, given the cost difference of high speed or not being fairly small in the grand scheme of things.
     
  21. Kendalian

    Kendalian Member

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    I'll believe it when I see it!
     
  22. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Can we try to keep this thread on topic to discus the proposals.

    For ideas on what the route may consist of, please use: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ked-leeds-manchester-high-speed-route.187006/

    Discussion on Boris Johnson has probably already been done to death on this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/theresa-may-resigns-conservative-leader-election-discussion.183205/page-16 so we don't need this thread to become a copy of that one please.

    For HS2 discussion, please use one of the existing threads.

    Thanks! :)
     
  23. LeeLivery

    LeeLivery Established Member

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    They'll fund it by "pausing" the Sheffield branch of HS2 and no TransPennine knitting. Leeds would still benefit and they can hide behind spending much less than HS2 on a half-done MML upgrade for Sheffield & Nottingham (as if Notts really benefited from HS2 anyway) and this new shiny project.

    Hopefully, they won't be stupid enough to continue this crazy idea that Man Picc should be a terminal instead of a through station.
     
  24. SussexMan

    SussexMan Member

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    I've done the maths. That's an average of 75mph. Hang on a minute, the top speed of a Pacer is 75mph. Aren't there going to be some available soon?
     
  25. superkev

    superkev Established Member

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    Talk is cheap particularly with the timescales involved.
    South of Watford perhaps but up here no chance.
    K
     
  26. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    If you can find a Pacer that has an infinate accelleration and braking rate, I'll fund the project myself.
     
  27. ohgoditsjames

    ohgoditsjames Member

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    And what about the Sheffield to Manchester line? You know, the 2 worst connected neighbouring cities in the country by both rail and road!
     
  28. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    Victoria to Stalybridge is already funded with enabling works e.g. bridge work done already. It can't be started in earnest until a decision has been made on what will be done to Miles Platting Junction and Stalybridge station.

    I think delaying phase 1 to 2027 is now inevitable, even if existing plans are not altered it would be a very tight timetable. After some alterations to save money it would probably mean opening phase 1 and 2a (Lichfield to Crewe) at the same time. The phase 2a bill passed completed final stages in House of Commons this month and second reading in House of Lords is in September so will probably become law around end of year.

    The eastern branch does look at risk. If Leeds-Manchester takes 30 minutes then using this route will only add 12 minutes to journey time to London and Birmingham compared with using the eastern branch. The route goes close to East Midlands Parkway, perhaps a compromise would building a station and a link with the MML and then electrifying to Derby, Sheffield and Nottingham. Sheffield-London services could run with 200m sets every 30 minutes, splitting and joining with hourly Derby and Nottingham sets. Both cities could retain 1tph to London via MML and all three could have their own services on HS2 to Curzon Street via East Midlands Parkway.
     
  29. Camden

    Camden Established Member

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    Manchester - Leeds was touted as £7bn back in the late 90s under the then government's Northern Way initiative.

    If you can build a base tunnel that distance for £2bn, I hope you're bidding.
     
  30. LeylandLen

    LeylandLen Member

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    If they can dig a tunnel with all its safety measures , releif tunnels etc between the UK and France, is it not possible to build a new one through or under the pennines to Leeds? Maybe beg the EU for a few £££ .. there again with Brexit that would be a big NO NO
     
  31. crosscity

    crosscity Member

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    £2bn for 50 miles of new 125mph railway across the Pennines sounds ludicrous. However might £2bn be a reasonable ball-park to straighten out and electrify Manchester Victoria to Leeds via the Calder Valley allowing 125mph missing out the huge expense of Standege Tunnel. Halifax and Bradford would benefit too. I believe Victoria-Hebden Bridge-Dewsbury-Leeds is just over 50 miles, so could easily offer a 30min journey time to Leeds at an average of 100mph on a 125mph railway.
     

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