Northern December 2017 Timetable Stakeholder consultation

[pemma]

To put this argument to bed the below is how many Leeds bound services the smaller stations between Huddersfield and Leeds will get after the changes:

Deighton - 18 (all TPE) INCREASE of 2 services
Mirfield - 32 (17 x TPE and 15 x Northern) INCREASE of 1 service
Ravensthorpe - 19 (17 x TPE and 2 x Northern) NO CHANGE
Batley - 33 (all TPE) INCREASE of 2 services
Morley - 32 (17 x TPE and 15 x Northern) INCREASE of 1 service
Cottingley - 19 (4 x TPE and 15 x Northern) DECREASE of 1 service

So Cottingley will see one fewer service per day but most stations will see more services. I didn't realise Batley would be losing it's call on the Leeds-Victoria service so I admit 2 TPE services per hour isn't the big improvement it looked to be. Given Cottingley's level of usage compared to Ravensthorpe it seems fair that the two stations should get the same level of service.

 

[pemma]

Why ask what my station is? You just said you knew what it was in the same post, after you'd lied about it before, saying otherwise.

Oh so it is Batley then. While the improvements aren't as good as I originally thought they were - slightly more services to Leeds, a lot more services to Huddersfield, faster services to Manchester and every service eventually operated by refurbished 185s with wifi, a trolley service and on board media streaming is a massive improvement on the tatty Pacers and Sprinters currently serving Batley.

 

[Spartacus]

I've no issues with the raw numbers, it's the connectivity that comes with the new service pattern East and West of Huddersfield. I'd love to see the current plans, but I think they might be like what myself and a few colleagues bashed out when we were still in TPC Leeds, there were few options with a 6th path pre-electrification.

Incidently it all started out when the 2nd hourly train to Knottingley was being talked about. We could never quite make it work with the freight traffic, though we did discover Leeds via Castleford, Monkhill & Milford to York would and might even give Pontefract a peak service to & from York, I'm surprised is it hasn't resurfaced: we were short of stock as it needed an extra unit: that wouldn't be a problem now.

 

[pemma]

I've no issues with the raw numbers, it's the connectivity that comes with the new service pattern East and West of Huddersfield. I'd love to see the current plans, but I think they might be like what myself and a few colleagues bashed out when we were still in TPC Leeds, there were few options with a 6th path pre-electrification.

I agree there's more to consider than just the number of services but until the new timetable is finalised we won't know about how good connections between services will be.

Incidently it all started out when the 2nd hourly train to Knottingley was being talked about. We could never quite make it work with the freight traffic, though we did discover Leeds via Castleford, Monkhill & Milford to York would and might even give Pontefract a peak service to & from York, I'm surprised is it hasn't resurfaced: we were short of stock as it needed an extra unit: that wouldn't be a problem now.

By 'now' I'm presuming you mean sometime in the next few years. There is still a DMU shortage and there's a very long list of routes around the country which need extra DMUs when they become available.

 

[Spartacus]

I agree there's more to consider than just the number of services but until the new timetable is finalised we won't know about how good connections between services will be.



By 'now' I'm presuming you mean sometime in the next few years. There is still a DMU shortage and there's a very long list of routes around the country which need extra DMUs when they become available.

Comparatively speaking. These were the days of few services running with more than one unit on, in West Yorkshire perhaps the Harrogates being your only chance, when it would have been very difficult to find any sets without cancelling a service, let alone running it short formed. Planning of anything that might require an extra set was unthinkable.

 

[yorksrob]

I've no issues with the raw numbers, it's the connectivity that comes with the new service pattern East and West of Huddersfield. I'd love to see the current plans, but I think they might be like what myself and a few colleagues bashed out when we were still in TPC Leeds, there were few options with a 6th path pre-electrification.

Incidently it all started out when the 2nd hourly train to Knottingley was being talked about. We could never quite make it work with the freight traffic, though we did discover Leeds via Castleford, Monkhill & Milford to York would and might even give Pontefract a peak service to & from York, I'm surprised is it hasn't resurfaced: we were short of stock as it needed an extra unit: that wouldn't be a problem now.

I'd rather they extended the proposed Huddersfield - Castleford to York.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Ah so he has previous in trolling the site then. Explains a lot.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Is the line through Altrincham still on course for an hourly Sunday service this December? Even if the weekday frequency improvements have been deferred to next May?

 

[pemma]

Is the line through Altrincham still on course for an hourly Sunday service this December? Even if the weekday frequency improvements have been deferred to next May?

No. Northern have decided it's too much hassle to do a separate Sunday recast.

 

[pemma]

Northern's track application for December 2017 changes: http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse docu...ses fri 28th july 2017/7th sa form p pdf.pdf

So if they changed anything as a result of the consultation it should show up there.

I also note they've asked to run Boxing Day services but haven't specified the lines they want to run them on, so 26th December this year might see the first Northern Boxing Day services.

 

[50032]

Northern's track application for December 2017 changes: http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse docu...ses fri 28th july 2017/7th sa form p pdf.pdf

The document implies that EMU's will be operating over the 'Bolton Corridor' from December. Is that realistic?

 

[WatcherZero]

Last I heard they were still working to completion late December narrowly missing December timetable change date.

 

[YorkshireLad]

So the Sheffield- Lincoln line finally gets a full Sunday service if this is approved.

I'm assuming there's no way of finding out times until closer to the time?

 

[pemma]

So the Sheffield- Lincoln line finally gets a full Sunday service if this is approved.

I'm assuming there's no way of finding out times until closer to the time?

You can make an educated guess using the information provided in the consultation document and the current timings. First Sheffield to Lincoln train will be at 08:40, while current Sunday departures at xx:42 with the exception of the last train. Last Sheffield to Lincoln train will be at 21:20.

So an educated guess would be 08:40 to 20:40, then 21:20 for Lincoln departures from Sheffield, with return workings from Lincoln at around 10 or quarter past the hour.

There's also a mention of direct services between Lincoln and Meadowhall so I imagine some will run as through trains to Leeds after Sheffield.

 

[pemma]

The document implies that EMU's will be operating over the 'Bolton Corridor' from December. Is that realistic?

ARN’s December 2017 timetable has been carefully developed through close co-operation with
industry colleagues to ensure it can accommodate their access requirements and address
performance concerns.
The majority of ARN’s proposed service enhancements are being implemented on parts of the
network that are not subject to heavy traffic and at off peak times, often extending the margins of
current operations. The increases in quantum sought for December 2017 represent interim
requirements preceding the May 2018 timetable change and utilise available capacity.
The additional unit diagrams required to resource additional services will be supported by a cascade
of DMUs enabled by a greater deployment of EMUs on both weekdays and Sundays. ARN plans to
deploy an additional 11 Class 319s in traffic for use on the Bolton corridor and to cover the new
Liverpool-Wigan hourly service. ARN is also undertaking continual recruitment and training of
additional traincrew to support the delivery of the proposed increase in quantum.
An evaluation of ARN’s proposed timetable changes was undertaken as part of the franchise bid
assuming both the December 2017 and May 2018 timetables would be implemented in December
2017. This marked the start of an iterative development process where continuous improvements
have been made to improve performance. ARN has sought to maximise the separation of services
with other ARN services and other operators and is working with Network Rail to ensure successful
validation. Further performance analysis is being undertaken for the May 2018 timetable change.

With regards to using 319s on the Bolton corridor it would perhaps be beneficial for Northern to introduce them as soon as they can, given they are playing catch up with refurbishing Sprinters by the end of 2019.

 

[Greybeard33]

Some provisional December timetable information now on line. It appears that the Chat Moss Airport and Victoria services will at last be timed for 319s not DMUs. See for example http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/liverail/train/10807700/11/12/17.

The Chorley line timetables seem to be incomplete at this stage, e.g. no Preston to Victoria or Hazel Grove services. Maybe because of uncertainty about electrification?

 

[50032]

The 0607 Picc - Crewe is still shown as DMU, but the return working, the 0722 Crewe - Bolton is shown as a 319.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The 0607 Picc - Crewe is still shown as DMU, but the return working, the 0722 Crewe - Bolton is shown as a 319.

At least with a 319 there's no risk of 2 coaches...

 

[Greybeard33]

At least with a 319 there's no risk of 2 coaches...

But perhaps a greater risk of none....

 

[pemma]

At least with a 319 there's no risk of 2 coaches...

I don't think it'll make any difference. That service is still shown as departing Crewe at 07:22 and arriving at Bolton at 09:03 (the same times as a pair of 142s currently run to.) So in the event of a 319 shortage it'll be top of the list to get a DMU filling in - which will most likely be a 2 car set obtained by short forming a service booked as a 4 car DMU. In the same way if there's a 323 shortage currently a 323 can be nabbed off a peak time Alderley Edge service to ensure that all Glossop and Stoke services operate and run using EMUs.

 

[Philip]

With the frequency of semi-fast services between Chester and Manchester doubling from next year, as well as the new Greenbank-Manchester service starting, I wonder whether the existing Chester-Manchester stopping service via Northwich could be put to better use? Would it be worth reopening Middlewich Station and diverting the current Mid-Cheshire stopper into Crewe, with calls at Middlewich and Sandbach? The saving on the journey time would of course free up DMUs which could be used to ensure all of the Greenbank services run with at least 4 coaches.

Would the towns at the western end of the Mid-Cheshire line benefit more from a new, quick and direct service to Middlewich, Sandbach and Crewe? Also remember that it may be quicker for passengers at the western end to make a change at Chester for Manchester, rather than use the current tortuous direct service.

It's also pretty shambolic that a town the size of Middlewich doesn't have a rail service, despite the track being there and operational.

 

[Starmill]

This thread is not the place for the Middlewhich debate again!

Yes it would probably have the best BCR out there but there appears to be a lack of political support (and much much more for things like HS2, Metrolink extensions and 'Northern Powerhouse Rail'). The line is painfully slow and the service is now comitted to run to Greenbank (Chester at peak times) and not Middlewhich. Winsford is very close to the town, and Sandbach station (in Elworth) not much further.

 

[Greybeard33]

This thread is not the place for the Middlewhich debate again!

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=119280 is the appropriate thread for Middlewich.

 

[IanXC]

This thread is not the place for the Middlewhich debate again!

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=119280 is the appropriate thread for Middlewich.

Agreed. Middlewich is off topic on this thread and any further discussion will be deleted.

 

[Halish Railway]

The Sunday Recast timetable has been released for the Wharfedale line - big changes in the times:
Current - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/ILK/2017/12/03/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
Post December change - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/ILK/2017/12/10/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[Starmill]

There are very significant changes in minutes past the hour there, yes. But the only increase in service is for Ilkley <> Bradford Forster Square and Skipton <> Bradford Forster Square, both going from 2-hourly to hourly.

 

[YorkshireLad]

I know RealTime trains isn't guranteed but the extra services between Sheffield and Retford seems to have disappeared?

 

[pemma]

I know RealTime trains isn't guranteed but the extra services between Sheffield and Retford seems to have disappeared?

I think more December 2017 enhancements have been put back to May 2018 as Network Rail have now confirmed Manchester to Bolton won't be wired by the December timetable date.

 

[Starmill]

It's been discussed in the timetable change thread that additional Harrogate and Retford services aren't likely to begin in December.

 

[pemma]

It's been discussed in the timetable change thread that additional Harrogate and Retford services aren't likely to begin in December.

Confirmed in this document (P33): https://www.greatermanchester-ca.go...d/2510/item_06_local_rail_service_performance