Northern Delay Repay - free ticket discrepancy

Status
Not open for further replies.

johntea

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
2,035
I've had a couple of day return journeys affected by a delay >1 hour on the return journey recently

For the first claim I opted for free tickets, and received a ticket with the 'return' box ticked

For the second claim I again opted for free tickets, but this time have received a ticket with just the 'single' box ticked!

Which one is correct?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Watershed

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
3,135
Location
UK
If the delay is 30-59 minutes, you're entitled to a complimentary single ticket.

If the delay is 60-119 minutes, you're entitled to a complimentary return ticket.

If the delay is 120+ minutes, you're entitled to 2 complimentary return tickets.
 

packermac

Member
Joined
16 Sep 2019
Messages
543
Location
Swanage
If the delay is 30-59 minutes, you're entitled to a complimentary single ticket.

If the delay is 60-119 minutes, you're entitled to a complimentary return ticket.

If the delay is 120+ minutes, you're entitled to 2 complimentary return tickets.
Are these any time tickets, as most off peak returns are little more than a single or is it a free ticket anywhere on their network?
Last time I travelled Wareham to Bournemouth the fare difference was 20p for an off peak return.
 

Watershed

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
3,135
Location
UK
Are these any time tickets, as most off peak returns are little more than a single or is it a free ticket anywhere on their network?
Last time I travelled Wareham to Bournemouth the fare difference was 20p for an off peak return.
These tickets are valid at any time, between any two stations served by Northern.
 

johntea

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
2,035
If the delay is 30-59 minutes, you're entitled to a complimentary single ticket.

If the delay is 60-119 minutes, you're entitled to a complimentary return ticket.

If the delay is 120+ minutes, you're entitled to 2 complimentary return tickets.

Hmm

Your planned route (scheduled times):
Departing 1745 from Harrogate to Leeds arriving 1822.
Departing 1832 from Leeds to Castleford arriving 1849.

Route we think you took (actual times):
Departed 1846 from Harrogate to Leeds arrived 1919.
Departed 1932 from Leeds to Castleford arrived 1948.

So they've sneakily dodged the return ticket by a minute, but looking on the journey planner for a 1932 Leeds to Castleford shows arrival of 1949...
 

jamiearmley

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2017
Messages
50
Send them an email. They will happily sort it, you will probably get an extra ticket thrown in for good measure.
 

Stuwhu

Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
134
Hmm

Your planned route (scheduled times):
Departing 1745 from Harrogate to Leeds arriving 1822.
Departing 1832 from Leeds to Castleford arriving 1849.

Route we think you took (actual times):
Departed 1846 from Harrogate to Leeds arrived 1919.
Departed 1932 from Leeds to Castleford arrived 1948.

So they've sneakily dodged the return ticket by a minute, but looking on the journey planner for a 1932 Leeds to Castleford shows arrival of 1949...
I've had this, they go off the actual arrival time not the timetabled one.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
3,699
I've had this, they go off the actual arrival time not the timetabled

Not always, to be quite honest, slightly OT but it’s good to see them doing it this way. For years they used to use the timetable rather than the running times and I’ve had to appeal decisions on a few occasions when they’ve paid out too little here.

Unless of course they use which ever result suits them, but I’m pretty sure it’s mostly automated.

The 1932 arrives at 1948 fairly frequently, probably almost half of the time, it is a very reliable service. You don’t specify the date of travel but if it was a day where it arrived at 1948 as they say then a single ticket is what you’re entitled to.
 

johntea

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
2,035
Yep, I checked and it looks like the service arrived a minute ahead of schedule! (It was 30/04)

Amazing how a minute makes a difference between a single and a return ticket but if that is the way it is then so be it!
 

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
6,680
Amazing how a minute makes a difference between a single and a return ticket but if that is the way it is then so be it!
It may look harsh but the line does have to be drawn somewhere.
 

JonathanH

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
9,250
It may look harsh but the line does have to be drawn somewhere.
Yes. However, the problem with this being a whole hour rather than 59 minutes is that the original train probably would have arrived a minute early as well, if they have similar padding.
 

johntea

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
2,035
Yes. However, the problem with this being a whole hour rather than 59 minutes is that the original train probably would have arrived a minute early as well, if they have similar padding.

Hmm, now you've mentioned that the previous service also arrived 1 minute early...
 

peters

On Moderation
Joined
28 Jul 2020
Messages
916
Location
Cheshire
The same thing has happened to me. I had a ticket which I intended to use on a train arriving in Altrincham at 08:59, it was cancelled and the following train arrived just before the clock go to 09:59 and Northern decided that was a 59 minute delay meaning a single ticket was issued.

I actually found under Arriva they tended to round up but the current operator are being stricter and don't round so a 59 minute and 45 second delay is classed as under 60.
 

johntea

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
2,035
That may not help; -1 late means 1 minute early!

That's the point though, if the ('original plan') 18:49 arrived 1 minute early then my ('new plan') 19:49 also arriving 1 minute early equates to a delay of 60 minutes ;)
 

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
6,680
That's the point though, if the ('original plan') 18:49 arrived 1 minute early then my ('new plan') 19:49 also arriving 1 minute early equates to a delay of 60 minutes ;)
Sorry, I see the point you were making. Unfortunately, I don't think you'll have success - they can reasonably say that your planned arrival time was 18:49 and the delay is measured against that to your actual arrival time. That's not to say that they won't issue something out of sympathy if you write and query it.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,122

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
3,699
Consistency is key.

If the train you missed had arrived 30 minutes late, would you suggest you were entitled to less compensation because the difference in time was less?
I’m assuming in that scenario you’d want to use the difference between the booked arrival time and the actual arrival time.


As such, in your example above you must do the same thing.

Delay repay is calculated solely on the difference between the planned arrival time and your actual arrival time.
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
1,856
These tickets are valid at any time, between any two stations served by Northern.

Im sure you’re already aware of this, but for clarity this statement isn’t quite right - it’s valid between any two stations served by Northern and using Northern trains only. No sneaking from Lancaster to Carlisle on Avanti!
 

Watershed

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
3,135
Location
UK
Im sure you’re already aware of this, but for clarity this statement isn’t quite right - it’s valid between any two stations served by Northern and using Northern trains only. No sneaking from Lancaster to Carlisle on Avanti!
Of course - I would hope that much is obvious from the epithet "Northern only" ;)
 

johntea

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
2,035
Consistency is key.

If the train you missed had arrived 30 minutes late, would you suggest you were entitled to less compensation because the difference in time was less?
I’m assuming in that scenario you’d want to use the difference between the booked arrival time and the actual arrival time.


As such, in your example above you must do the same thing.

Delay repay is calculated solely on the difference between the planned arrival time and your actual arrival time.

Yes that makes sense now, thanks :)

They must have got sick of my 3 claims in as many weeks (I only travel into work once a week these days!) as there were no delays this evening :D
 

Mcr Warrior

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
4,675
These tickets are valid at any time, between any two stations served by Northern.

Im sure you’re already aware of this, but for clarity this statement isn’t quite right - it’s valid between any two stations served by Northern and using Northern trains only. No sneaking from Lancaster to Carlisle on Avanti!
Have previously had to buy a separate ticket from Lancaster to Preston for travel on Avanti when using a Northern complimentary made out between Carlisle and Manchester. The alternative would have been a rather lengthy wait at Lancaster for the next Southbound service on Northern.
 

185143

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2013
Messages
3,697
Not always, to be quite honest, slightly OT but it’s good to see them doing it this way. For years they used to use the timetable rather than the running times and I’ve had to appeal decisions on a few occasions when they’ve paid out too little here.

Unless of course they use which ever result suits them, but I’m pretty sure it’s mostly automated.

The 1932 arrives at 1948 fairly frequently, probably almost half of the time, it is a very reliable service. You don’t specify the date of travel but if it was a day where it arrived at 1948 as they say then a single ticket is what you’re entitled to.
I'm certain it's automated. I once received two free returns (which was the correct compensation) for a journey which I'd explained each step of and provided my split tickets for. The "Route we think you took" assumed that I'd spent the night stranded in Manchester and didn't even use a Northern service!
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
3,699
A little OT perhaps, Automation is much much faster for straightforward claims. This is a definite advantage for passengers and the operator, decisions can be made almost instantly and passengers have been known to receive compensation (when using instants methods such as BACS or PayPal) the same day, or shortly afterwards, and these Northern Free Tickets can be on your doorstep in a week in many circumstances.

I did quite a lot of data analysis on this in 2019 (over a hundred hours) with lots of data, some freely available and some requested and noticed a lot of trends. I never got to drawing up a detailed set of conclusions due to other commitments but plan to obtain more data this year and next to include some comparative data whilst doing so.


The primary issue is a risk of the system paying out on invalid claims. The way to get around this is to bias the system design to only accept the most definite absolute cases and choose what to do with the rest (which will only be a small percentage). The most customer friendly approach would be to refer those to a human who could look through and contact the passenger for more information to clarify something before making a decision. Of course, the cheaper option is to just reject them outright. This is the option many TOCs take. It’s then down to the passenger to appeal that decision where it MAY then be looked at by a human. This provides an extra opportunity to thin out the claims further as many will just accept their defeat even if they were eligible. These systems ARE improving but we still see obvious systemic issues such as

* rejecting missed connections where the arrival time and departure time were 0 minutes or more (regardless of minimum connection time).

* using timetable data instead of running data when a train is cancelled.

* only paying out on the leg of the journey that was delayed, even with a through ticket.

* using running information from a train that did not call to calculate compensation.

And many others.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top