northern electrification and Crewe-Chester

[TheWalrus]

Which routes are currently confirmed for electrification in the north?

With the amount of electrification proposed on Northern's network I don't think it will be enough to free up all the pacers and provide extra DMUs for strengthening. Is the North relying more on Thameslink and Great Western electrification to free up DMUs to be cascaded up North?

Also in regards to if Crewe-Chester is electrified what would happen to through Euston-Holyhead services?

Cheers

 

[snowball]

Which routes are currently confirmed for electrification in the north?

The most recent announcement is quoted in this post (though the poster was in error to use the terms 'Pinch Point Fund' and 'Tranche 4' - they applied to part of a simultaneous roads announcement).

The last announcement before that was the conditional approval of Oxenholme to Windermere.

Schemes already announced before that are as follows:

1) Those being developed by the north-west team are listed in this post,

2) Further east there's Stalybridge to Leeds, Leeds to York and Selby, and as much of St Pancras to Sheffield as you consider to be in the north.

 

[47802]

I don't think its really clear yet how much Railbus replacement will be generated, for one thing its not clear how much adjustment of the timetable their might be to reduce diesel running under the wires, whether such as the class 222's will be used to replace HST's or free up existing sprinter type units, and of course electrification scheme keep getting announced such as Bolton Wigan.

 

[Holly]

... Also in regards to if Crewe-Chester is electrified what would happen to through Euston-Holyhead services?

Crewe-Chester would be extremely difficult and expensive to overhead electrify. It should have been done using third rail a generation ago, too late now.

To the extent that it would probably be cheaper to build a whole new right of way to modern standards (since there are no intermediate stations and given the topography).

 

[HSTEd]

as a 'spur' of HS2 for instance.
Complete with continental loading gauge.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Virgin (and I think First) proposal was to diesel-haul new 6-car Pendolinos west of Crewe.
This would also include Chester-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton where the wires restart, essentially offering a circular route.
That plan is now on the back burner until the next proper franchise starts, but it is still valid if Crewe-Chester or Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury is wired.
That would mean Euston-Chester becoming an all-electric route (with through running to the Wirral with dual mode stock if anyone is interested in doing that).
The Welsh Government is also looking at wiring in North Wales longer term.

I think the "low bridge" problem between Crewe and Chester is overdone.
Most of those bridges are farm accommodation and local road bridges which could be rerouted rather than rebuilt.
The skew canal tunnels (2 curved bores) at Christleton might be more of a problem.
It may be that Warrington-Chester comes first (as an extension of NW wiring).
Halton tunnel looks to have a decent profile.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As a 'spur' of HS2 for instance. Complete with continental loading gauge.

My word, you ARE looking way ahead to the future with that particular premise...

 

[Manchester77]

The Virgin (and I think First) proposal was to diesel-haul new 6-car Pendolinos west of Crewe.

Think it was just the virgin proposal, first did want to purchase additional EMUs but only 12 (iirc) to displace voyagers off runs fully under the wires whereas VT wanted to replace all their voyagers with new baby pendos and bespoke diesel locos.

[/OFFTOPIC]

 

[quantinghome]

Crewe-Chester would be extremely difficult and expensive to overhead electrify. It should have been done using third rail a generation ago, too late now.

To the extent that it would probably be cheaper to build a whole new right of way to modern standards (since there are no intermediate stations and given the topography).

No electrification schemes in the UK have ever required a new alignment to avoid low bridges. There are tried and tested methods to get the clearance needed.

 

[merlodlliw]

The Virgin (and I think First) proposal was to diesel-haul new 6-car Pendolinos west of Crewe.
This would also include Chester-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton where the wires restart, essentially offering a circular route.
That plan is now on the back burner until the next proper franchise starts, but it is still valid if Crewe-Chester or Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury is wired.
That would mean Euston-Chester becoming an all-electric route (with through running to the Wirral with dual mode stock if anyone is interested in doing that).
The Welsh Government is also looking at wiring in North Wales longer term.

The Secretary Of State for Wales,David Jones also MP based at Colwyn Bay,is keen to see North Wales Wired,it is pleasant to once again have a North Wales Secretary Of State who understands the area, I am not so sure about Welsh Governments current interest in North Wales wires,they seem more obsessed with South/North hourly HSTs.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the "low bridge" problem between Crewe and Chester is overdone.
Most of those bridges are farm accommodation and local road bridges which could be rerouted rather than rebuilt.

I wonder how it compares in distance and number with the recent work to gauge clear for W10 from Southampton to Basingstoke via Romsey, Salisbury (Laverstock) and Andover. That took a couple of years of intermittent weekend possessions and they rebuilt a significant number of both main road and accommodation bridges.

Don't recall any major issues or much negative media coverage in the area...

 

[pemma]

Also in regards to if Crewe-Chester is electrified what would happen to through Euston-Holyhead services?

Well Virgin in their bid for the next franchise proposed North Wales-London services would become Pendolino operated with a new type of diesel-electric loco attached/removed at Crewe, which would work better than the Thunderbirds previously used. If Crewe-Chester was wired then it would mean the same thing could be done at Chester instead with a smaller order of diesel-electric locos.

The bigger question is what would happen to North Wales to Manchester services if Warrington-Chester was wired.

 

[Holly]

No electrification schemes in the UK have ever required a new alignment to avoid low bridges. There are tried and tested methods to get the clearance needed.

The Crewe-Chester line bridges are very old (150 years), very numerous and very low.
Many of the bridges have historic value and should not be raised even if it were possible (which is probably is not).
The land is flat and the area rainy. If you lowered the track you would have to build new drainage and pumps or you would have flooding.

It's not impossible, but because the land is largely green fields and farming (and therefore relatively cheap) if would (perhaps) be cheaper to build a new right of way and avoid the costs associated with disruption and working around the same. It is certainly worth pricing it out. The end result would be a lot better (loading gauge and new durables structures).

Also you could either selling off the old right of way land for a healthy profit or have a second line for diversions or freight (not that there presently is any freight to speak of but we are thinking in terms of 100 year investment proof against climate change).

Yes, you don't have to do a new right of way, but it's a much better deal overall. Except for the cows that will lose some of their pasture.

The other alternative is third rail, that is still possible if the North Wales coast is never to have OHLE which seems quite likely.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The other alternative is third rail, that is still possible if the North Wales coast is never to have OHLE which seems quite likely.

Has there been any "wheels within wheels" Network Rail discussion concerning that proposed 3rd rail system extending from Chester to Crewe.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Has there been any "wheels within wheels" Network Rail discussion concerning that proposed 3rd rail system extending from Chester to Crewe.

I think dual-voltage Pendolinos working Euston-Chester is one of the less likely future scenarios.
Network Rail have looked at "discontinuous electrification" Crewe-Chester but it did not stand up practically (too much switching/coasting).

I once started counting the low bridges, and got to 19 I think between Crewe-Beeston Castle, and a similar number (before I forgot to count) between Beeston Castle and Chester.
But most of them only carry herds of cows and the odd tractor.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's not impossible, but because the land is largely green fields and farming (and therefore relatively cheap) if would (perhaps) be cheaper to build a new right of way and avoid the costs associated with disruption and working around the same. It is certainly worth pricing it out. The end result would be a lot better (loading gauge and new durables structures).

If the proposal to build a new railway right of way in the specific area of Chester to Crewe, would this be a point of conflict with local authorities and other organisations in respect of any historical sites that this new line would have to pass through. My personal historical sites knowledge of Cheshire is far better with regard the Cheshire East area that abuts the Peak District and not that area in question.

 

[snowball]

Has there been any "wheels within wheels" Network Rail discussion concerning that proposed 3rd rail system extending from Chester to Crewe.

Most unlikely, I'd guess. As far as I know the only people proposing it are one or two individuals in this forum.
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If the proposal to build a new railway right of way in the specific area of Chester to Crewe, would this be a point of conflict with local authorities and other organisations in respect of any historical sites that this new line would have to pass through.

Again, as far as I know, the only people proposing this are one or two individuals in this forum
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Looking at the existing Crewe-Chester line on OS 1:25000 mapping I'd say it looks very well aligned, and so potentially suitable for high speed, except for a reverse curve south of Tarporley.

Not suitable for HS2 captive stock though.

 

[TDK]

No electrification schemes in the UK have ever required a new alignment to avoid low bridges. There are tried and tested methods to get the clearance needed.

It's not so much the wiring it's the pantograph clearance that is apparently the problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Most unlikely, I'd guess. As far as I know the only people proposing it are one or two individuals in this forum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Again, as far as I know, the only people proposing this are one or two individuals in this forum
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Looking at the existing Crewe-Chester line on OS 1:25000 mapping I'd say it looks very well aligned, and so potentially suitable for high speed, except for a reverse curve south of Tarporley.

Not suitable for HS2 captive stock though.

3rd rail is a waste of time on high speed lines.

 

[6Gman]

The Secretary Of State for Wales,David Jones also MP based at Colwyn Bay,is keen to see North Wales Wired,

Let's be grateful he isn't Transport Secretary then!


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also you could either selling off the old right of way land for a healthy profit or have a second line for diversions or freight (not that there presently is any freight to speak of but we are thinking in terms of 100 year investment proof against climate change).

Or more realistically you could sell off the old alignment for next to nothing, probably less than the cost of remediation and decontamination.

Except for a few plots that might be suitable for housing this ain't a moneyspinner.
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I once started counting the low bridges, and got to 19 I think between Crewe-Beeston Castle, and a similar number (before I forgot to count) between Beeston Castle and Chester.
But most of them only carry herds of cows and the odd tractor.

By my reckoning there are 40 "bridges" (one of them is actually a tunnel under the canal) over the railway between Crewe (limit of current wiring) and Chester:

6 A Roads
3 B Roads
10 minor roads
18 'occupation' bridges i.e. access to fields, farms or individual properties
1 Canal

Not bad for c.20 miles!

 

[snowball]

Preston to Lancaster is a very similar distance to Crewe to Chester (both about 21 miles) and by my count has 44 overbridges, many of which were low, but it still got electrified. Precast concrete arches of a standard shape were used to replace the original arches where necessary.

It's possible that some may have been demolished without replacement when it was wired - 44 is the number today.

 

[Holly]

Has there been any "wheels within wheels" Network Rail discussion concerning that proposed 3rd rail system extending from Chester to Crewe.

It was looked at 20 years or so ago. It didn't happen then so it won't happen now. Not least because 125mph then becomes forever impossible.

Frankly, I don't see Crewe-Chester electrification on the existing right of way happening in any conceivable future. There are no current proposals, and not likely to be any.

 

[snowball]

It didn't happen then so it won't happen now. Not least because 125mph then becomes forever impossible.

Perhaps even more than that, because extensions to third rail systems are becoming ever more unlikely, whereas conversions of existing third rail systems to 25kV overhead are being considered.

Frankly, I don't see Crewe-Chester electrification on the existing right of way happening in any conceivable future. There are no current proposals, and not likely to be any.

That remark is hard to understand, given that it's one of eight routes to be considered in the next year, according to the DfT press release issued on 13 December:

A joint taskforce will explore where next for electrification in the North. The new taskforce will be made up of experts from Network Rail and the DfT and will involve train operators, local authorities including the Rail North consortium, the supply chain and local Members of Parliament. This group will provide the Transport Secretary with an interim report within 12 months setting out how schemes can be brought forward and their development accelerated.

As part of Network Rail’s ongoing work to identify the next generation of schemes that will be electrified as part of the government’s continued rail investment, the routes to be examined will include:

Leeds – Harrogate – York
Selby – Hull
Sheffield – Leeds
Sheffield – Doncaster
East Coast Main Line – Middlesbrough
Sheffield – Manchester
Warrington– Chester
Crewe – Chester

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/road-and-rail-projects-to-boost-local-and-regional-transport--2

 

[thenorthern]

Are they still planning to electrify the North Wales coast line in full?

 

[Starmill]

Wasn't a very clever solution to low bridges come up with on the Paisley Canal line? IIRC it came in well under budget? Or is it very slow speed only there? What's the current prevailing speed like between Crewe and Chester?

 

[snowball]

Are they still planning to electrify the North Wales coast line in full?

What do you mean by "still"? What plan are you referring to? Like most of the other lines in the country that haven't been electrified yet, it will probably all be electrified some day, but does not have any committed funding or timescale, and never has had, neither the whole nor any part of it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wasn't a very clever solution to low bridges come up with on the Paisley Canal line? IIRC it came in well under budget? Or is it very slow speed only there? What's the current prevailing speed like between Crewe and Chester?

I would have thought that technique was most inappropriate for a main line. As I understand it, only certain relatively low-height EMU stock normally uses it in the daytime. Anything else (such as most locomotives) can only use it when the overhead line is isolated.

 

[TheWalrus]

Has there been any "wheels within wheels" Network Rail discussion concerning that proposed 3rd rail system extending from Chester to Crewe.

It was looked at 20 years or so

So was crossrail and now that's happening.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wasn't a very clever solution to low bridges come up with on the Paisley Canal line? IIRC it came in well under budget? Or is it very slow speed only there? What's the current prevailing speed like between Crewe and Chester?

It's a 90mph line, except the short section of reverse curves through Beeston Castle which is 75mph.
As I said, NR looked at discontinuous electrification, and there were too many places where they would have to drop the pan and coast.

Are they still planning to electrify the North Wales coast line in full?

There's an "aspiration".
Some of it is "me too" politics seeing as the South Wales main line and Valleys are being wired.
Another argument is that it is a strategic international TEN route and they will get Euro-money for it.
To others, "North Wales Electrification" means the piddling local line from Wrexham to Bidston, for ever on somebody's short list for throwing good money away.
It will all get reviewed in the next year or so, but whether that makes any progress at Cardiff or with Network Rail's priorities is another matter.
It is likely to get tangled up in the next round of rail devolution and W&B franchise specification.
If W&B stick with diesels that's the end of it.
Planning to do Warrington/Crewe-Chester is a necessary precursor, and may be the catalyst to go along the coast.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's a 90mph line, except the short section of reverse curves through Beeston Castle which is 75mph.
As I said, NR looked at discontinuous electrification, and there were too many places where they would have to drop the pan and coast.



There's an "aspiration".
Some of it is "me too" politics seeing as the South Wales main line and Valleys are being wired.
Another argument is that it is a strategic international TEN route and they will get Euro-money for it.
To others, "North Wales Electrification" means the piddling local line from Wrexham to Bidston, for ever on somebody's short list for throwing good money away.
It will all get reviewed in the next year or so, but whether that makes any progress at Cardiff or with Network Rail's priorities is another matter.
It is likely to get tangled up in the next round of rail devolution and W&B franchise specification.
If W&B stick with diesels that's the end of it.
Planning to do Warrington/Crewe-Chester is a necessary precursor, and may be the catalyst to go along the coast.

Yes the "locals" in north Wales will want it but the hourly Cardiff to Holyhead HST service will scupper it as wiring a route with so many diesels running under the wires will knacker the business case.

 

[bluenoxid]

When looking at electrification in this area would it be better to also look at the whole issue of transport provision in this area.

What about installing a curve around Shotton to bring Wirral services round into Chester?

The main thing is to look at what the demands are going to be and adapt the rail network to take that into account

 

[edwin_m]

I would have thought that technique [as on the Paisley Canal line] was most inappropriate for a main line. As I understand it, only certain relatively low-height EMU stock normally uses it in the daytime. Anything else (such as most locomotives) can only use it when the overhead line is isolated.

It is reported that all classes of EMU running in Scotland can run to Paisley Canal but if a diesel train needs to serve the freight terminal on the line (which is currently out of use anyway) the power has to be turned off. The exact nature of what is possible on another route would depend on the exact clearances that exist at the bridges.