Northern empty stock working shuttling between York and Newcastle this week?

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crimple

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There is a Northern empty stock working most weekdays York-Newcastle and return 5Z01,5Z11,5Z02 and 5Z12. I assume this is for crew training purpose. However Northern to the best of my knowledge do not operate any services between the 2 cities. Any ideas
 
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PHILIPE

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There is a Northern empty stock working most weekdays York-Newcastle and return 5Z01,5Z11,5Z02 and 5Z12. I assume this is for crew training purpose. However Northern to the best of my knowledge do not operate any services between the 2 cities. Any ideas


It is 158792 today so probably route learning/refreshing
 

ainsworth74

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It moves stock to and from Heaton. Some of the stuff running around in Yorkshire technically lives in Heaton and other stock gets sent there from time to time for maintenance work.
 

crimple

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Don,t really understand ainsworth's answer about changing ssock as it is according to RTT the same 158 everyday 158 792
 

ainsworth74

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I was referring to whose route learning but Ainsworth has already explained what the empty working was for.
Don,t really understand ainsworth's answer about changing ssock as it is according to RTT the same 158 everyday 158 792

Apologies with no RTT links provided I didn't have time to check fully and missed that it was the same unit going up and down between York and Newcastle. However to expand slightly on my answer and reasoning in my earlier post, as stated Northern do have empty stock moves between York and Newcastle for the purposes I alluded to. On looking further those seem to have decreased from what there used to be (possibly Covid related though also possibly related to the end Pacers as Heaton based Pacers used to range quite a long way away from Heaton) as there's just a couple of Sundays now. For instance in the not to distant past there used to be a regular move shortly after the weekday evening peak which saw a pair of units that had run a peak time service from Leeds to Harrogate to York then head off down the ECML to Newcastle. So Northern do sign York to Newcastle because they need it for empty stock moves to cycle things between Yorkshire and Heaton for maintenance purposes. Now with, apologies, I don't know the reason for this specific service which is shuttling backwards and forwards as that obviously isn't what a unit going for maintenance would do(!) but I will make enquiries with someone who may know more.
 

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Apologies with no RTT links provided I didn't have time to check fully and missed that it was the same unit going up and down between York and Newcastle. However to expand slightly on my answer and reasoning in my earlier post, as stated Northern do have empty stock moves between York and Newcastle for the purposes I alluded to. On looking further those seem to have decreased from what there used to be (possibly Covid related though also possibly related to the end Pacers as Heaton based Pacers used to range quite a long way away from Heaton) as there's just a couple of Sundays now. For instance in the not to distant past there used to be a regular move shortly after the weekday evening peak which saw a pair of units that had run a peak time service from Leeds to Harrogate to York then head off down the ECML to Newcastle. So Northern do sign York to Newcastle because they need it for empty stock moves to cycle things between Yorkshire and Heaton for maintenance purposes. Now with, apologies, I don't know the reason for this specific service which is shuttling backwards and forwards as that obviously isn't what a unit going for maintenance would do(!) but I will make enquiries with someone who may know more.


Could it be route learning/refreshing
 

ainsworth74

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Could it be route learning/refreshing

It would seem a decent bet! Especially if they aren't running as many empty stock services between the two as they used to as it would obviously lapse if they don't refresh it.
 

Kieran1990

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There a fair few clips on YouTube of Northern class 142s/144s/158s flying through Northallerton on theses ECS moves to Heaton/ York
I think the top link at York sign York-Darlington for this purpose.

 
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It moves stock to and from Heaton. Some of the stuff running around in Yorkshire technically lives in Heaton and other stock gets sent there from time to time for maintenance work.
Could it be route learning/refreshing
Yes - Northern (and all other TOCs AFAIK) only use ‘5Zxx’ headcodes for route knowledge/driver training runs. If I were to hazard a guess as to what it could be for, I’d imagine that it would be to have sufficient drivers with the required route knowledge to operate the planned Newcastle to Middlesbrough via Stillington service.

I’m not too familiar with Northern’s workings in the northeast so I’d like to ask someone how many of the drivers in that part of the world have route knowledge of the ECML between Newcastle and Darlington? Clearly there must be quite a few given that Northern operate a Saltburn to Newcastle via Darlington service.

Another point that I’d add is that I’m sure that 158s get between Neville Hill and Heaton by inter-working the Leeds to Carlisle and Carlisle to Newcastle services.
 

ainsworth74

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With thanks to a friendly informed source:

It's drivers at York that for one reason or another don't sign it. Either it's expired during the pandemic, they're new drivers that have never learnt it to start with, or they've transferred from another depot and therefore need to learn it.

I’m not too familiar with Northern’s workings in the northeast so I’d like to ask someone how many of the drivers in that part of the world have route knowledge of the ECML between Newcastle and Darlington? Clearly there must be quite a few given that Northern operate a Saltburn to Newcastle via Darlington service.

Darlington and Newcastle drivers all sign between Darlington and Newcastle (the only two driver depots up here) along with those drivers at York who sign from York to Newcastle (obviously ;)).
 

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There is normally a 21+35 York to Heaton and a 23+35 Heaton to York which would change over 158s but which are not running during COVID so these ECS are, I presume, for York drivers to maintain their route knowledge and for new ones to learn.
 
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ainsworth74

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There is normally a 21+35 York to Heaton and a 23+35 Heaton to York which would change over 158s but which are not running during COVID so these ECS are, I presume, for York drivers to maintain their route knowledge and for new ones to learn.

Yes as stated in the post above yours it's for drivers whose route knowledge has expired, are new and have never learnt it before or have transferred to York so need to learn it ;)
 

Anvil1984

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, I’d imagine that it would be to have sufficient drivers with the required route knowledge to operate the planned Newcastle to Middlesbrough via Stillington service.

Just to pick up on this, at present NO Northern Drivers sign Ferryhill - Norton (a.k.a "Stillington") and there are no immediate plans to do so. Yes they applied for rights to operate there but couldn't get realistic timetable slots so no plans for route learning or being timetabled in. Plan B is an extra train an hour via Durham Coast but Covid keeps putting that off. On another note even though 158s daily get swapped around via the Settle and Carlisle, quite often there is a need to get one to Yorkshire quicker for unit balancing / wheelflat turning (no wheel lathe at Heaton) so the Darlington to York route knowledge is needed

Getting back to topic the reasoning is correct for the "Z" trains and its not just isolated to this route, they've already been noted on the Hellifield "Dalesrail" line, there are route learning trains around the North East (Darlington / Middlesbrough to Newcastle) and probably a few more around to network
 

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It moves stock to and from Heaton. Some of the stuff running around in Yorkshire technically lives in Heaton and other stock gets sent there from time to time for maintenance work.

Yeah - back when I paid attention to such things, the 142s that ran a significant proportion of local services in/around Sheffield "lived" at Heaton, and were cycled up there for heavier maintenance (Sheffield can fuel trains etc but not do the harder stuff) - I don't know what we are currently "borrowing" from Heaton because I've not been down to Sheffield Midland for many months for perhaps obvious reasons

Back in the shoestring days of RRNE/ Northern Spirit/ Arriva Trains Northern/ SercoNed, it was one of those annoying "price worth paying" things, where a three hundred mile ECS round trip was the price you had to pay for the lack of proper facilities at Sheffield - I was hoping that the expansion under the "second" Arriva franchise would have committed to some level of "proper" depot in South Yorkshire for local trains (given the investment at places like Blackburn to accommodate increases in stock, the fact that other TOCs are getting depots in places like Doncaster...) but alas not.
 

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I’m not too familiar with Northern’s workings in the northeast so I’d like to ask someone how many of the drivers in that part of the world have route knowledge of the ECML between Newcastle and Darlington? Clearly there must be quite a few given that Northern operate a Saltburn to Newcastle via Darlington service.
I'm fairly certain Northern don't run a Saltburn-Darlo-Newcastle service, and it definitely doesn't run over the ECML - Northern run (or did pre-Covid) I believe three services in the morning peak from Newcastle to Darlo, for stock movement reasons, but they're the only Northern passenger services on the ECML. I may have got this wrong so happy to be corrected!
 

Class 170101

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I'm fairly certain Northern don't run a Saltburn-Darlo-Newcastle service, and it definitely doesn't run over the ECML - Northern run (or did pre-Covid) I believe three services in the morning peak from Newcastle to Darlo, for stock movement reasons, but they're the only Northern passenger services on the ECML. I may have got this wrong so happy to be corrected!


Couple of times a day in that direction nothing in the reverse direction.
 

willgreen

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Couple of times a day in that direction nothing in the reverse direction.
Fair enough - I think that extension beyond Darlo might be new, but I guess it makes sense - you might as well keep the unit moving instead of having it stuck in Darlington station.
 

Anvil1984

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Fair enough - I think that extension beyond Darlo might be new, but I guess it makes sense - you might as well keep the unit moving instead of having it stuck in Darlington station.

Nope the extension isn't new its been there in all shapes and forms for at least 10 years (the extension towards Carlisle might have been new due to changing diagrams). Definitely hasn't been any Northern morning passenger trains south from Newcastle in that time frame neither - all ECS.


Couple of times a day in that direction nothing in the reverse direction.

Just a pedantic note there is a Metrocentre to Saltburn via Darlington on a Sunday night, the rest of the week its just Newcastle to Darlington
 
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Just to pick up on this, at present NO Northern Drivers sign Ferryhill - Norton (a.k.a "Stillington") and there are no immediate plans to do so. Yes they applied for rights to operate there but couldn't get realistic timetable slots so no plans for route learning or being timetabled in. Plan B is an extra train an hour via Durham Coast but Covid keeps putting that off. On another note even though 158s daily get swapped around via the Settle and Carlisle, quite often there is a need to get one to Yorkshire quicker for unit balancing / wheelflat turning (no wheel lathe at Heaton) so the Darlington to York route knowledge is needed

Getting back to topic the reasoning is correct for the "Z" trains and its not just isolated to this route, they've already been noted on the Hellifield "Dalesrail" line, there are route learning trains around the North East (Darlington / Middlesbrough to Newcastle) and probably a few more around to network

I noticed there was a 5z11 Barrow to Morecambe train that ran on 15 Feb (via the Hest Bank to Bare Lane northern curve). And back again as 5z13. Presumably as a route learning train. Didn't run today I don't think.
 

willgreen

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Nope the extension isn't new its been there in all shapes and forms for at least 10 years (the extension towards Carlisle might have been new due to changing diagrams). Definitely hasn't been any Northern morning passenger trains south from Newcastle in that time frame neither - all ECS.



Just a pedantic note there is a Metrocentre to Saltburn via Darlington on a Sunday night, the rest of the week its just Newcastle to Darlington
Checked it and you're right - I stand corrected.
 

Zooty

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I noticed there was a 5z11 Barrow to Morecambe train that ran on 15 Feb (via the Hest Bank to Bare Lane northern curve). And back again as 5z13. Presumably as a route learning train. Didn't run today I don't think.
It also did a Morecambe-Lancaster-Carnforth round trip before heading back to Barrow. It was scheduled for 16 Feb as well but didn't run.
 
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