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Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

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pemma

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My point is two-fold - one is that you can't expect miraculous changes overnight; the other is that a lot of the complaints we get in are massively short-sighted

Perhaps operators (not just Northern) need to do more to point out you can't just go to a train dealership and pick up some new trains. Even bus operators can get an almost new vehicle on lease in next to no time, so how are those without any rail industry supposed to know that you can't do that with trains?

but expect to be fobbed off and for the new trains to go on the other side of the Pennines (regardless of which side that is!)

Until the original Northern franchise was formed and they decided 153s and 158s (including the ex-FNW ones) for Yorkshire and 150s and 156s for the North West (including ex-ATN ones) I don't think the West vs East complaints existed. Yorkshire getting new 333s didn't result in complaints in the North West so I doubt the North West getting new 175s at around the same time did.

Our regional director is on record saying that we're going to try and get in any spare train that we can

If that's true then I hope they are looking at the other 156s and 170s which will come off-lease and will try and get them in as soon as possible if they can secure them.
 
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Bwlch y Groes

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Perhaps operators (not just Northern) need to do more to point out you can't just go to a train dealership and pick up some new trains. Even bus operators can get an almost new vehicle on lease in next to no time, so how are those without any rail industry supposed to know that you can't do that with trains?
We do point this out, repeatedly. The people complaining often refuse to listen and don't believe it
 

158756

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If that's true then I hope they are looking at the other 156s and 170s which will come off-lease and will try and get them in as soon as possible if they can secure them.

"If they can secure them" being the important part. Is there likely to be any extra subsidy forthcoming from Whitehall?
 

northernchris

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The overcrowding is frustrating but I think a lot of the complaints we get in from customers about this are a bit short-sighted, in the sense that peak time trains will always be busy and are always very likely to be overcrowded. That said, the number of complaints about overcrowding has dropped over the last few weeks, which suggests the extra units that have arrived have made a difference. The problem is obviously the number of services is going to grow in May which will spread the fleet thin again. I know that's not much of a response, but it's the reality of the situation - until the DfT, WYCA, Greater Manchester or whoever pull their chequebook out, capacity's always going to be an issue

I'm not convinced the extra units have made a difference at all. The services which had their capacity reduced in December haven't had it restored yet and short forms for the last period were 3.4% compared to 1.9% for the same period last year.

Regarding the May changes, some routes are going to be at a disadvantage to now and Northern aren't being transparent about this. The posters I saw at stations last week said the timetables would be online by today and they aren't. It's things like these that don't inspire confidence - if the date was unachievable don't promote it. During the Q&A with Liam I did ask if Northern had any plans to publicise train formations in advance so it would be possible to plan round the worst of the overcrowding but I'd be amazed if anything was released
 

Bwlch y Groes

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Regarding the May changes, some routes are going to be at a disadvantage to now and Northern aren't being transparent about this. The posters I saw at stations last week said the timetables would be online by today and they aren't. It's things like these that don't inspire confidence - if the date was unachievable don't promote it. During the Q&A with Liam I did ask if Northern had any plans to publicise train formations in advance so it would be possible to plan round the worst of the overcrowding but I'd be amazed if anything was released

There's a difference between the times and timetables. The times were supposed to be in the journey planner now, as National Rail Enquiries have been telling people - I'm not sure if they're all in yet or why they wouldn't be. The timetables will be out in PDF form on 7th May

In terms of train formations, I don't think it's a good idea to publicise this - you'll get situations where more customers will go for the longer trains which will just shift the overcrowding rather than dealing with it. The customer information screens do give an indication and we publicise short-forms on JourneyCheck where possible. Otherwise I'm not sure there's a huge amount that can done. If there are X number of people wanting to get on and Y capacity, with X being greater than Y, it doesn't matter how much you shuffle the deck - the only way you can deal with that is increasing Y, be it by lengthening trains or running more services

The risk is that word will get out that trains are longer or that there are more services, and more people will start using the trains, so they stay overcrowded and it looks like we're still failing. My worry is that even if Northern deals with the problems it faces now, it may end up becoming a victim of its own success. It's not like London Overground where they can just call in more investment because it's London and London gets carte blanche for public transport spending. It's more likely to end up like the other operators in the south-east where they add on more and more carriages but the overcrowding doesn't go away and they retain that poor reputation that in most cases they don't deserve
 

pemma

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"If they can secure them" being the important part. Is there likely to be any extra subsidy forthcoming from Whitehall?

It's worth remembering Northern have to secure a further 18 x 170s or equivalent by 2022. Given 150 cascades are delayed (meaning extra capacity and refurbishments are delayed) and there's a possibly some might not transfer at all, it wouldn't seem unreasonable for the 170s or equivalents to arrive early or for more 156s to arrive in lieu of 150s.
 

pemma

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We do point this out, repeatedly. The people complaining often refuse to listen and don't believe it

Northern carry millions of passengers. Are you sure it's the same people who refuse to listen?

I'm aware some people aren't really aware the franchise changed hands in 2016 and when hearing how long trains take to procure respond by saying Northern could have ordered them in 2012.
 

pemma

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In terms of train formations, I don't think it's a good idea to publicise this - you'll get situations where more customers will go for the longer trains which will just shift the overcrowding rather than dealing with it.

Northern did used to publicise how busy services were likely to be at some stations with very frequent services like Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme, which might have resulted in some people going for a 3 car 323 with empty seats instead of a single 142 with standing room only.

The customer information screens do give an indication and we publicise short-forms on JourneyCheck where possible.

Problem with that is it says the number of carriages not the capacity of the train. A 2 car 142 filling in for a 2 car Sprinter can be the difference between passengers being left on the platform and everyone being able to squeeze on.

The risk is that word will get out that trains are longer or that there are more services, and more people will start using the trains, so they stay overcrowded and it looks like we're still failing. My worry is that even if Northern deals with the problems it faces now, it may end up becoming a victim of its own success.

Extra services will result in the train looking like a more attractive option and attracting more passengers. Northern need to try and predict how many extra passengers they'll get and acquire extra rolling stock based on those forecasts. OK they might prove to be wrong but if an operator finishes up with too many carriages then it's unlikely that there won't be another operator who they can sublease some units to, especially in the case of DMUs. If it's too few then there's a problem but not as big a problem as not forecasting for extra passengers (as was the case with the old franchise.)
 

pemma

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There's not a line that hasn't seen a refurbished train yet.

As I suspected that claim is rubbish. Nothing but 323s have operated to Stoke or Glossop and there isn't a single refurbished 323, I suspect the same is true on electrified routes out of Leeds and possibly even diesel routes where the booked traction only includes Pacers and 153s.
 

pemma

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323s were refurbished in the old franchise, just the toilets were not attended to.

They were given new seat covers, an internal repaint and a new floor cover, like all the other trains the old franchise operated. Using that logic the 150s with Ashbourne seating and old Northern seat covers (which aren't still properly intact) are refurbished trains and there wasn't a train which hadn't been refurbished on the first day of the current Northern franchise.
 

driver_m

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They were given new seat covers, an internal repaint and a new floor cover, like all the other trains the old franchise operated. Using that logic the 150s with Ashbourne seating and old Northern seat covers (which aren't still properly intact) are refurbished trains and there wasn't a train which hadn't been refurbished on the first day of the current Northern franchise.

So they were refurbished then?....Why spend money on a product that was in good condition? And technically those lines have probably had refurbed trains one those lines, sure, they'll have departed towards other destinations, but if you're going to nitpick then your own 'logic' should be looked at too. It's quite clear you've got a vendetta against Northern going off your comments both on this forum and wnxx. As witnessed by one of your posts headlined with swearing in it.
 

507021

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As I suspected that claim is rubbish. Nothing but 323s have operated to Stoke or Glossop and there isn't a single refurbished 323, I suspect the same is true on electrified routes out of Leeds and possibly even diesel routes where the booked traction only includes Pacers and 153s.

The 323s are being replaced with brand new trains and going off lease, so what's the point in refurbishing them? As for the 333s, they can't be released for refurbishment until the 331s start to arrive.
 

northernchris

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There's a difference between the times and timetables. The times were supposed to be in the journey planner now, as National Rail Enquiries have been telling people - I'm not sure if they're all in yet or why they wouldn't be. The timetables will be out in PDF form on 7th May

In terms of train formations, I don't think it's a good idea to publicise this - you'll get situations where more customers will go for the longer trains which will just shift the overcrowding rather than dealing with it. The customer information screens do give an indication and we publicise short-forms on JourneyCheck where possible. Otherwise I'm not sure there's a huge amount that can done. If there are X number of people wanting to get on and Y capacity, with X being greater than Y, it doesn't matter how much you shuffle the deck - the only way you can deal with that is increasing Y, be it by lengthening trains or running more services

The risk is that word will get out that trains are longer or that there are more services, and more people will start using the trains, so they stay overcrowded and it looks like we're still failing. My worry is that even if Northern deals with the problems it faces now, it may end up becoming a victim of its own success. It's not like London Overground where they can just call in more investment because it's London and London gets carte blanche for public transport spending. It's more likely to end up like the other operators in the south-east where they add on more and more carriages but the overcrowding doesn't go away and they retain that poor reputation that in most cases they don't deserve

With the train formations I'm not sure what use there is in hiding it. In if one or two services are getting less capacity but those around them are getting an increase there can be no harm in trying to spread out the loadings. Some passengers will have a choice of lines to use, or will be able to adapt their travel patterns to avoid the worst services so the more information that can be provided the better. Otherwise I suspect they'll be lots of people turning up on May 21st finding themselves unable to board

Of course you're right with the funding not being there, and we're still paying the price from the way the franchise was let in 2004 but my concern is that in a few weeks time there's some quite significant changes which Northern aren't doing enough to communicate
 

pemma

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So they were refurbished then?....Why spend money on a product that was in good condition? And technically those lines have probably had refurbed trains one those lines, sure, they'll have departed towards other destinations, but if you're going to nitpick then your own 'logic' should be looked at too. It's quite clear you've got a vendetta against Northern going off your comments both on this forum and wnxx. As witnessed by one of your posts headlined with swearing in it.

The 323s are being replaced with brand new trains and going off lease, so what's the point in refurbishing them? As for the 333s, they can't be released for refurbishment until the 331s start to arrive.

This is getting quite stupid now. Look at what the poster I was replying to had said:

Bwlch y Groes said:
Over 90 trains have been refurbished now, out of a total of 243.
..
There's not a line that hasn't seen a refurbished train yet.

It's obvious the 90 trains referred to are the 150s, 155s, 156s, 158s and 319s refurbished by the current franchise, not any train operated by Northern that has ever been refurbished since it was built. So unless every line has seen one of the refurbished 150s, 155s, 156s, 158s and 319s the claim was wrong. Why is pointing that out not allowed?

I never said the 323s should be refurbished by the current franchise only they hadn't been and they were the only trains which the current franchise has used on some routes.

So @driver_m apparently I'm both anti-Northern and anti-RMT. I suppose that must mean I'm one of the few people on here who has a balanced on the DOO dispute then. ;)
 

507021

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This is getting quite stupid now. Look at what the poster I was replying to had said:

Yes, I have read that.

It's obvious the 90 trains referred to are the 150s, 155s, 156s, 158s and 319s refurbished by the current franchise, not any train operated by Northern that has ever been refurbished since it was built. So unless every line has seen one of the refurbished 150s, 155s, 156s, 158s and 319s the claim was wrong. Why is pointing that out not allowed?

It isn't obvious to everyone, particularly the average passenger who probably (with the exception of Pacers) doesn't know each type of train Northern operates and how many of each have been refurbished. For what it's worth, I think it's quite likely most if not all lines which aren't getting new trains have seen a refurbished unit at some point or another.

Also, I spotted something on Twitter yesterday which mentions the possibility of the 23 off lease Class 185s heading to Northern, although nothing has been confirmed yet.
 

driver_m

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Not balanced at all jcollins. I'd just say completely negative as far as Northern are concerned. I'm no fan of them, but I know a rotten hand, when one is dealt.
 

pemma

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Not balanced at all jcollins. I'd just say completely negative as far as Northern are concerned. I'm no fan of them, but I know a rotten hand, when one is dealt.

I think you're presuming my opinion on old Northern is the same as new Northern. I've posted many posts both on here and wnxx welcoming the proposed improvements and if you read my recent posts in another thread I even said Northern proposed the best all round solution and a rail user's group interferring is what caused a compromised solution.
 

Bwlch y Groes

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Apologies, you're quite right, jcollins. I wasn't thinking straight. I should have been clearer - I meant every line with diesel trains will have seen a refurbished train. There are no refurbished electric trains so lines like Ilkley, Bradford Forster Square, Glossop, Stoke etc wouldn't have seen a refurbished Northern train yet. I would argue that the electric trains are in better condition anyway, but that's not the point
 

backontrack

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Apologies, you're quite right, jcollins. I wasn't thinking straight. I should have been clearer - I meant every line with diesel trains will have seen a refurbished train. There are no refurbished electric trains so lines like Ilkley, Bradford Forster Square, Glossop, Stoke etc wouldn't have seen a refurbished Northern train yet. I would argue that the electric trains are in better condition anyway, but that's not the point
Plus the Wakefield Line (via Adwick).

There's a difference between the times and timetables. The times were supposed to be in the journey planner now, as National Rail Enquiries have been telling people - I'm not sure if they're all in yet or why they wouldn't be. The timetables will be out in PDF form on 7th May.

And in paper form?
 

backontrack

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Yeah, only South Kirby Junction-Doncaster, although of course that will have seen them on ECS from Wabtec
1st June. Obviously with the delay to confirming them to begin with, there's been a delay to the process of making the paper timetables
I see, thanks. Normally, the paper timetables would be out early, not late! :rolleyes:
 

plcd1

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Looks like Andy Burnham has had enough of Northern Rail's performance. He's written to Transport for the North requesting an investigation into their performance and whether there has been a breach of the franchise. A copy of the letter is on the web link below.

https://www.greatermanchester-ca.go...for_official_investigation_into_northern_rail

“Enough is enough”: Mayor Andy Burnham calls for official investigation into Northern Rail

THE performance of railway provider Northern Rail is now so poor that the time has come for an official investigation to establish whether it is breaching its license to operate, according to Andy Burnham, the Mayor of Greater Manchester.

Since the start of the year, the Mayor has been bombarded with complaints about Northern’s service from long-suffering commuters. Recognising that their patience has run out, Andy’s intervention follows weeks of disruption for travellers using the rail network across the city-region, including frequent delays, last-minute cancellations and often dangerously overcrowded on-board conditions.

The Mayor has written to Transport for the North (TfN - see below) highlighting a series of missed deadlines and examples of serial poor performance, which he says has made travelling by train a misery for many.

In questioning whether Northern’s recent record has resulted in the operator breaching the terms of its franchise, the Mayor highlighted “an unacceptably poor service in recent weeks”.

Andy said: “Enough is enough. Northern Rail passengers, the people of Greater Manchester, deserve so much better than the dire service they have been forced to endure in recent months.

“I am calling for TfN formally to assess whether Northern is in breach of its franchise agreement.”

In his letter to John Cridland, Chairman of TfN, the Mayor sets out the causes of his frustration and calls for action.

“I believe Transport for the North should now consider escalating its response and assess whether Northern are in breach of the performance targets as set out in its franchise agreement.

“I would also be grateful if you could set out what actions can be taken by Transport for the North should it be determined that Northern are in breach.”

In November the Mayor wrote to Northern and described the situation as “completely unacceptable.” Last month, in further correspondence with Northern, Network Rail and the Secretary of State for Transport, Andy called for immediate action to be taken to improve services.

Data shows that Northern has recently missed its targets for delays and cancelled services, including double the number of anticipated cancellations during March.

In addition, several public commitments made by Northern to Greater Manchester passengers have not yet been met, including:

  • · Increased trains per hour between Manchester and a number of Greater Manchester and other locations
  • · New route options and connections to new destinations
  • · Sunday timetables to be enhanced offering additional services on some corridors
  • · Refurbished bi-mode trains operating between Manchester Airport and Windermere and Manchester Airport and Wigan North Western
  • · Refurbished electric trains operating between Manchester and Preston via Bolton
The people of Greater Manchester communicate with the Mayor via social media, highlighting their negative experiences of train travel.

One commuter told the Mayor: “This morning’s train into Manchester is as ridiculous as ever. Doors keep jamming and if someone doesn’t pass out due to heat and overcrowding it will be a miracle! Please hold Northern to account.”

Another added: “On a daily basis we have to put up with the incompetence and frankly dangerous overcrowding on Northern Rail trains. When are you going to help us @MayorofGM? We deserve a public transport system that can do the basics!”

Andy said: “How can it be right that Northern presides over a service on which dangerous overcrowding in rush-hour is the norm, to such an extent that we know passengers have been taken ill? What accountability exists for an operator so persistently failing in its duty to deliver a reliable, safe service?

“The time has come to increase pressure on Northern to start delivering for its customers.

Interesting times.
 

a_c_skinner

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It is only politics, and opposition politics at that. No connection to the real world. Mr Burnham will be working for his party's advantage at the ballot box, not for the commuter on the platform. This isn't a party point, they all do it. After all the number of GPs is falling despite the promise of 5000 extra, Hunt knew that would happen when he made the announcement. Politics.
 
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Looks like Andy Burnham has had enough of Northern Rail's performance. He's written to Transport for the North requesting an investigation into their performance and whether there has been a breach of the franchise. A copy of the letter is on the web link below.

https://www.greatermanchester-ca.go...for_official_investigation_into_northern_rail



Interesting times.
Andy Burnham never lets facts get in tbe way of party pplotical point scoring and toadying up to his mates.
 

PR1Berske

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It is only politics, and opposition politics at that. No connection to the real world. Mr Burnham will be working for his party's advantage at the ballot box, not for the commuter on the platform. This isn't a party point, they all do it. After all the number of GPs is falling despite the promise of 5000 extra, Hunt knew that would happen when he made the announcement. Politics.
The tone of his letter is not political. It would have included Labour party policy were it so. In this case, perhaps cynicism can be put to one side.
 

PHILIPE

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Looks like Andy Burnham has had enough of Northern Rail's performance. He's written to Transport for the North requesting an investigation into their performance and whether there has been a breach of the franchise. A copy of the letter is on the web link below.

https://www.greatermanchester-ca.go...for_official_investigation_into_northern_rail



Interesting times.

Already posted here:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-rails-problems-in-lancashire.163590/page-13
 

pemma

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While Burnham hasn't mentioned delays outside Northern's control, it should be noted when Chiltern wanted TPE 170s they got them despite TPE still needing them, when Scotrail wanted Northern 158s they got them despite Northern still needing them, yet when Northern wanted GWR 150s they secured them and then subleased them back to GWR due to GWR still needing them and consequently delayed their own enhancements. Why should the Chilterns, South West and Scotland get different treatment to the North?
 
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