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Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

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pemma

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So that doesn't say longer staffing hours and also doesn't define catering services - possibly a cold vending machine with food and drink and a hot drinks machines?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Assuming these will only serve Worksop/Retford/Gainsborough/Saxilby after Sheffield and the other stations of the line will be left with the remaining Sheffield-Lincoln services plus the Retford/Worksop terminators?

All they say is journey times will be improved by 5-10 minutes between Lincoln and Sheffield.
 
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43074

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I've worked out what the 12 x Northern Connect routes will be:
Manchester Airport to Barrow (new DMUs)
Manchester Airport to Windermere (new EMUs)
Manchester Airport to Blackpool (new EMUs)
Manchester Airport to Liverpool via Warrington (new DMUs)
Chester to Leeds via Bradford (new DMUs)
Liverpool to Leeds via Bradford (new DMUs)
Manchester Airport to Leeds via Bradford (new DMUs)
Leeds to Lincoln via Sheffield (new DMUs)
Sheffield to Scarborough (new DMUs)
Middlesbrough to Newcastle (refurbished 158s)
Newcastle to Carlisle (refurbished DMUs - 158s?)
York to Blackpool (new DMUs)

And Nottingham to Leeds via Wakefield Westgate. Do we think the Leeds - Sheffield - Lincoln service will include one of the two semi-fast services via Barnsley? If they're treating Chester/Liverpool - Leeds as one service that would be the 12.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
All they say is journey times will be improved by 5-10 minutes between Lincoln and Sheffield.

That suggests running non-stop to Worksop with intermediate stops covered by the extra stopping services. That would probably be enough to save 5 - 10 mins.
 

pemma

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And Nottingham to Leeds via Wakefield Westgate. Do we think the Leeds - Sheffield - Lincoln service will include one of the two semi-fast services via Barnsley? If they're treating Chester/Liverpool - Leeds as one service that would be the 12.

Or Manchester Airport to Blackpool and Windermere as one, especially considering the latter won't be a regular service.
 

bradders1983

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All they say is journey times will be improved by 5-10 minutes between Lincoln and Sheffield.

Hmm they wont achieve this by stopping at every station. The line would be much better operated by running Sheffield-Worksop/Retford stoppers and then Sheffield-Worksop-Retford-Gainsborough LR-Saxilby-Lincoln only services anyway, IMO. How many people at Kiveton Park and Shireoaks want to go as far as Lincoln? Cant wager many and if they do they can change at Worksop or Retford.
 
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Stats

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Looking at the DfT info, the timeline for the new units is

End of 2018: 92 new-build carriages (net increase of 19 carriages)
End of 2019: 163 new-build carriages introduced; all pacers removed; train refurbishment programme complete
End of 2020: 26 new-build carriages introduced
 

pemma

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Hmm they wont achieve this by stopping at every station. The line would be much better operated by running Sheffield-Worksop/Retford stoppers and then Sheffield-Worksop-Retford-Gainsborough LR-Saxilby only services anyway, IMO. How many people at Kiveton Park and Shireoaks want to go as far as Lincoln? Cant wager many and if they do they can change at Worksop or Retford.

When 150s are used on Lincoln-Sheffield do they finish up arriving early? I find on the Mid-Cheshire line 150s are a lot more likely to arrive early than 142s due to the extra set of doors and better acceleration. Withdrawing Pacers alone could easily give some timing improvements.
 

ScotTrains

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Has there been any word regarding improvements to catering services? The Settle-Carlisle route could do with having more trains with catering. The Carlisle-Newcastle has no catering whatsoever. The Cumbrian coast could also do with catering, they'd make a fortune if every basher bought just one cup of tea!
 

SuperOwl86

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This is what it says on the interactive map for the Lincoln line.

"The benefits are:

Lincoln-Sheffield will become part of the Northern Connect network, operated by new trains, with a minimum of 10 trains per day in each direction running through to Meadowhall, Barnsley, Wakefield and Leeds
typical journey times Lincoln-Sheffield will be no more than 75 minutes, compared to 80-85 minutes today
Gainsborough, Retford and Worksop will benefit from faster journeys
off-peak frequency between Sheffield, Worksop and Retford will increase to 2 train per hour, as it already is at peak time".

What drives me mad is the last part waiting to get into Sheffield. It used to take 10mins from Woodhouse to Sheffield it now takes about 15 mins with waits to get in.
 

Bletchleyite

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So that doesn't say longer staffing hours and also doesn't define catering services - possibly a cold vending machine with food and drink and a hot drinks machines?

The South East demonstrates that offering premises to private companies is sufficient to ensure this at stations. Passenger numbers are getting similar, so there's little need for Northern to do anything other than allow a contractor on site.
 

Bletchleyite

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The gov.uk press release says stations will have catering. Which will be welcome - there's nowhere near Ulverston station to get a coffee before travelling, for instance.
 
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Iskra

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Where does it say that? The gov.uk press release says stations will have catering. Which will be welcome - there's nowhere near Ulverston station to get a coffee before travelling, for instance.

Apologies, I've misread it. I'll delete my post. I can see no reference to onboard catering now.
 

bradders1983

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This is what it says on the interactive map for the Lincoln line.

"The benefits are:

Lincoln-Sheffield will become part of the Northern Connect network, operated by new trains, with a minimum of 10 trains per day in each direction running through to Meadowhall, Barnsley, Wakefield and Leeds
.

I believe they have to run some trains from the SYPYE stations on this line through to Meadowhall anyway, so they will probably have on the line:

- Lincoln to Leeds (calling at Saxilby, Gainsborough LR, Retford, Worksop, Sheffield, Meadowhall, Barnsley, Wakefield and Leeds
- Lincoln or Retford or Worksop to X (calling at all stations to Sheffield, then Meadowhall, and then onwards to somewhere like Huddersfield)

If the Northern Connect trains are used to fulfill this SYPTE condition of the SYPTE stations having a direct Meadowhall connection, it will be stopping at every station on the line and wont save any time whatsoever.
 
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Roose

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The Cumbrian Coast has finally got a decent Sunday service down the full-length of the line, which is a great improvement. I think the LHCS is quite popular on that line amongst the normals to be honest.
Won't be decent unless reliability is improved.

While carriage comfort is appreciated, the ongoing lack of reliability certainly isn't at all popular with the locals and even seems to deter enthusiasts from afar from making a special visit lest they are stranded or fail to travel behind/photograph their preferred motive power.


I've always thought a Nottingham to Glasgow via Leeds, Carlisle and Dumfries would be a pretty useful route, I think one of the open access companies were looking at that for a while.

It certainly wouldn't be at all useful to people from Carlisle and points south who want to travel to Glasgow; unless the GSW route takes your fancy for a particular reason then a change at Carlisle is always going to be quicker and likely cheaper, especially if you split-ticket and help Virgin with its Fresh air import/export service between Carlisle and Glasgow (though to be fair reasonable fares to Glasgow from Carlisle are helping with loading this year)


From name wise I have heard that Arriva will retain the name Northern Rail with an updated logo, however we could return to Arriva Trains Northern.

I am looking at the service through Grange-over-Sands and it seems the fears that the service would get worse have been unfounded.

I can't wait though for the massive fare rises to pay for the shiny new trains.


There have been no such fears since the specification was published by the government for operators to plan their bids.

Airport services to Barrow are restored to pretty much the previous level; improvements on Windermere airport services too, compared to present (unsure how many operated previously there). Good work by the Cumbria Better Connected Campaign, supported by John Woodcock MP (Lab, Barrow and Furness) and Tim Farron MP (LibDem, Westmorland and Lonsdale). Credit to the government for listening, too, in the face of massive developments at Ulverston, Barrow and in West Cumberland.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The eastern end of the Chat Moss route looks like getting 7tph.
1. TPE Liverpool-Edinburgh
2. TPE Liverpool-Scarborough
3. Northern Connect Liverpool-Bradford
4. Northern Connect Chester-Bradford-Leeds
5. Northern Liverpool-Manchester Airport (current Victoria stopper)
6. Northern Wigan NW-Manchester Airport (replaces current TPE 350 service)
7. ATW North Wales-Manchester (Airport?) - this is 2tph in the peak

Only the Liverpool/Wigan-Airport will be EMUs until TP wiring is complete
Presumably the services on the western end of the line are unchanged, plus an occasional TPE Liverpool-Wigan-Glasgow.
Will the Wigan services extend to Windermere in certain hours (the Windermere text does not specify a route)?
This also looks like Wigan's only Airport service (ie none via Bolton/Atherton).
This also means no direct Southport-Airport service (diverted via the Calder Valley instead?).

Presumably all this assumes the Ordsall Chord and Huyton 4-tracking will be finished, plus the very vague "Manchester-Bradford journey time improvements".
 

geoffk

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"Liverpool to Bradford via Calder Valley (of course diesel)"

Or bi-mode. It makes little sense starting a new diesel service over a newly-electrified line. Presumably this will be an all-stations, replacing the Liverpool - Vic.

I live on the Calder Valley and we will be getting trains to Liverpool, Chester, Southport and Man Airport! That's a lot of trains to get through here, even though it must include the current Manchester-terminating services (so that fewer will terminate at Vic). It's at least one extra per hour and we must have the linespeed/signalling improvements promised to make it possible.

There will be concern over service levels at smaller stations like Littleborough and Sowerby Bridge until we see more detail. And what about loops/paths for freight?

Also I see " one Northern Connect service per hour to/from Preston, Leeds and York, to be operated by new diesel trains" - not Blackpool? Surely folks in East Lancashire won't be happy with that.
 

Bletchleyite

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Airport services to Barrow are restored to pretty much the previous level; improvements on Windermere airport services too, compared to present (unsure how many operated previously there)

In the "North West Express" days of the 1990s it was roughly every 2 hours. I think that needs to return. Ideally all services would run through, portion worked with the Barrows, thus giving a 6 or 8-car train from Manchester to Lancaster.
 

Roose

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The gov.uk press release says stations will have catering. Which will be welcome - there's nowhere near Ulverston station to get a coffee before travelling, for instance.

Apart from the little blue (Citroen?) van parked outside. I forget its nickname.

And there's further hope;

The tower building at Ulverston train station has been empty and unused for a number of years.

The station is owned by Network Rail and leased by First TransPennine.

Earlier this year they got in touch with architectural company, Input Group.

Input Group, which has worked on a number of design projects for train stations, has put together a plan for the tower building, which is on the eastern side of the main station building.

The plans propose that a cycle hub and a reception room be put on the ground floor and a cafe on the first floor.

Architectural designer for Input Group, Kate McCall, submitted the planning application to South Lakeland District Council last month.

Mrs McCall said: “We want to install a first floor cafe and we are also proposing to put in a new entrance on the station side so people can access it easily.

“We want to keep the full height to keep the character of the building.

“We did initially look into putting two floors in but decided against it.”

The tower is a listed building and the planning application involves alterations to both the interior and exterior of the building.

(From NWEMail)
 

pemma

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Or bi-mode. It makes little sense starting a new diesel service over a newly-electrified line.

Ahem current Liverpool to Newcastle service?

With Calder Vale and Southport both high priority for future electrification on the electrification task force's priority list maybe they've drawn up new routes which they expect to become fully electric in the future.

Leeds-Bradford-Airport (as required by the ITT)
Leeds-Bradford-Southport
Leeds-Bradford-Liverpool
 

CaptainHaddock

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It's a possibility, but Leeds-Glasgow via the S&C makes more sense as it's a faster route connecting two big cities, so a direct service would be lucrative.

Nottingham-Carlisle doesn't really add much, but I'd still welcome it providing it didn't adversely affect performance on each 'leg'.

Obviously, Nottingham-Glasgow via Leeds and Carlisle would be the dream, but it's quite aspirational.

There's already a direct Sheffield-Carlisle service via the S & C but it only runs once each way on a Sunday.
 

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Looks good - and it looks as if Northern's twitter team were telling the truth about loco hauled trains over the S&C after all...

I can't open the links to see what plans are what, so could somebody tell me what are the expected upgrades and changes are for the Hull - York service?
 

sprinterguy

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Looks good - and it looks as if Northern's twitter team were telling the truth about loco hauled trains over the S&C after all...
Wait a minute, where has this been stated?

The Northern franchise improvement map only has the following to say regarding S&C services:
Leeds to Carlisle
The benefits are:
•an additional service will be provided in each direction
•two departures from Leeds between 1600 and 1900 in place of one today, addressing an important priority for users of the Settle & Carlisle line

Sundays
There will be 2 extra services in each direction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I can't open the links to see what plans are what, so could somebody tell me what are the expected upgrades and changes are for the Hull - York service?
Hull to York is as follows:
Hull to York
Additional services will provide a full hourly service, giving 17 trains per day each way. The current service is irregular, with 10 trains per day one way and 11 the other.

Sundays
There will be an hourly service (13 trains per day each way, 5 more than today).
 

theblackwatch

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Looking at the DfT info, the timeline for the new units is

End of 2018: 92 new-build carriages (net increase of 19 carriages)
End of 2019: 163 new-build carriages introduced; all pacers removed; train refurbishment programme complete
End of 2020: 26 new-build carriages introduced

Those 80 Class 387 cars ordered speculatively by Porterbrook may come in handy. 387s for Aire Valley perhaps?
 

geoffk

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Ahem current Liverpool to Newcastle service?

Well yes, but the Standedge route was to have been electrified by 2019 (now delayed), whereas wires along Calder Valley will be some time in the future.
 

HMS Ark Royal

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Wait a minute, where has this been stated?

The Northern franchise improvement map only has the following to say regarding S&C services:

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hull to York is as follows:

I'll have to go back through the thread, but somebody mentioned it...

The increased Hull-York service looks good - I presume that this means services prior to 0707 departure which would be useful for commuters and getting to railtours easier! The extra Sunday services are badly needed as the first train leaving Hull is the 0854.

The only sad thing is that my beloved pacers will be displaced :cry: :cry: :cry:
 

geoffk

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"Also I see " one Northern Connect service per hour to/from Preston, Leeds and York, to be operated by new diesel trains" - not Blackpool? Surely folks in East Lancashire won't be happy with that."

Having re-read the details, it seems that it will run from Blackpool. Bpl North will have two Manchesters, a Liverpool and a York.
 

Bletchleyite

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Very nice logo & colour scheme. Clean, crisp and professional, and will save them from having to repaint everything.

Though in the spirit of branding having to have some kind of nickname (e.g. "the flying F" or the "F-in-circle", I propose "the upside down horseshoe". Hope it doesn't bring them *too* much bad luck.

In all seriousness, though, it does indeed look modern and professional, much more so than the slightly "1980s bus company" effect of the existing one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Must admit, though, having had a nose, that if it will indeed only deliver a 30% increase in peak capacity that may well prove insufficient. My observation would be a need for a 100% increase or even more as demand increases - and an increase in service quality may well increase it further.

On that background, I'm not sure we should be scrapping any Pacers quite yet.
 
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