Northern franchise to end 1 March 2020 with Operator of Last Resort to take over

[ohgoditsjames]

I wonder if the happy train emus parked at Crewe could end up at Northern? That would be a quick easy win

Would be a win for those who are fortunate enough to have wired stations, for us "peasants" without wires not so much...

 

[HSTEd]

even WTO rules have provision for foreign access and competition for domestic business.

Those only apply if there is a "business".
This is why it does not apply in the case of the NHS etc.
If we have a state monopoly, operated on a non commercial basis, we are not required to have competition.

For example, if we operate transport as a public service with fares not expected to cover expenses inherently, then its fine.

 

[WesternLancer]

It won’ have helped having trains start & terminate at rather obscure places like Morpeth which are probably largely devoid of cleaning & support staff anyway, even if there’s sufficient turnaround time, which at some locations under the present timetable, there isn’t

Yes, but mobile cleaners might help (radical idea obv...)

 

[Carlisle]

Yes, but mobile cleaners might help (radical idea obv...)

True, I suppose that’s wholly dependent on the new operator’s willingness either to spend more or them being given access to more funding

 

[mmh]

Those only apply if there is a "business".
This is why it does not apply in the case of the NHS etc.
If we have a state monopoly, operated on a non commercial basis, we are not required to have competition.

For example, if we operate transport as a public service with fares not expected to cover expenses inherently, then its fine.

That's not how it works, it's up to the authorities in charge of rules for public service, i.e. governments - be them local (Westminster) or remote (Brussels) - to decide what the procurement rules are. The NHS, as an example, can't arbitrarily decide to give contracts to whoever someone wants on a whim, dependent on the size and nature.

I worked for a government department which predominantly only interacts with other government departments and arms length bodies, an absolute monopoly, but procurement still needed to follow the rules set by the Treasury and the European Union.

 

[HSTEd]

That's not how it works, it's up to the authorities in charge of rules for public service, i.e. governments - be them local (Westminster) or remote (Brussels) - to decide what the procurement rules are. The NHS, as an example, can't arbitrarily decide to give contracts to whoever someone wants on a whim, dependent on the size and nature.

I worked for a government department which predominantly only interacts with other government departments and arms length bodies, an absolute monopoly, but procurement still needed to follow the rules set by the Treasury and the European Union.

I'm referring to the supposed restrictions on public monopolies set by the WTO.
The EU rules become somewhat irrelevant since in a hard brexit they will not have any effect.
And Treasury rules can be struck down with the stroke of a pen.

 

[Goldfish62]

If you are a member of the public that thinks the trains are so old because Arriva are refusing to spend money preferring to send vast profits back to Germany, then I’d expect a new fleet in the autumn.

If you aren’t one of those people, then maybe in about 2030

Post of the day.

 

[WesternLancer]

True, I suppose that’s wholly dependent on the new operator’s willingness either to spend more or them being given access to more funding

I quite agree. In the great scheme of things it's probably the quickest and relatively cheapest way to get a quick win 'see the difference we have made' however, so you would think it would be an attractive option for the new managers, DfT and the politicians. A few cleaners no doubt paid minimum wage and probably employed by an agency, would seem pretty cheap in railway expenditure terms, yet for many passengers it would make a difference. I found travel on a new CAF DMU recently a rather poor experience due to messy state it was in. Hardly a good advert when you buy £m new stock but can't even be bothered to clean it - or so it would appear (although in most cases it is of course the great British mucky public that leave pubic places in a mess but that's another story!)

On a related matter it was interesting for me to note, on a refurbed Northern 158 last week how 'basic' the refurb seemed to be - really the lowest amount of money you could get away with spending I thought, and claim the train had been refurbished - stark contrast to the EMT 158s for example - not that I especially like what EMT did, but it was done to higher spec I would have said.

 

[Llama]

The 'cleaning' is indeed abysmal and just embarrassing and baffling on the new stock. I just hope that this upheaval lifts the lid on what actually goes on (or doesn't go on) on the likes of Newton Heath.

 

[Masboroughlad]

When this happens, does the organisation get a brand new CEO/MD and management team? Or do the old ones stay just with a new 'owner'. I guess they go?

How far down the structure do changes go?

 

[Masboroughlad]

Here's betting Heidi Mottram may come riding in from Northumbrian Water?

 

[Andyh82]

The following article is from today's Huddersfield Examiner

New operator makes bold promises
According to Mr Shapps, the new state-owned operator will:

• Get rid of all Pacer trains in Yorkshire “by the spring”
• Move electric trains from other parts of the network to the north so they can “boost capacity” for passengers travelling between Leeds and Manchester
• Trial new technology to “identify crowding pinch points”
• Extend platforms at 30 stations on the Northern network to accommodate longer trains
• Deep clean all trains and “review the cleaning pattern”
• Prioritise improving Sunday services

These are indeed worthy objectives as Sunday services are awful, the trains are filthy and there is a severe capacity shortage. I'm not sure whether its necessary to trial new technology to spot crowd pinch points - just travel around on trains for a week and you'll likely find out all you need to know.

Is he suggesting boosting capacity between Leeds and Manchester by transferring electric trains to northern routes, with existing diesels on these routes being transferred to transpennine route? if so, which current routes will the diesels be replaced by electrics? Surely the simplest fix is to keep the 185's which were to go off-lease and double up all 185 diagrams on north transpennine. Whilst transferring additional electrics may help on West side of Pennines, There are limited places east of Manchester where they could be employed at present - Ilkley, Bradford, Skipton, Doncaster, but these are already slated to receive or indeed have received additional electric trains. The rest is not electrified.

Or is he hinting the North Transpennne route might be electrified throughout (although many years hence)?
-

No nothing of the sort, the Examiner have basically just messed the story up.

The DfT announcement says extra electric trains will increase capacity into Manchester AND Leeds

Not BETWEEN Manchester and Leeds

Of course electric trains would be no good between Manchester and Leeds and in any case this is a TPE Route, but the Examiner won’t know this.

 

[syorksdeano]

will it make any diference ? same trains, same staff same timetable...same issues !

Ah apparently not. He will be introducing more electric trains to double capacity between Manchester and Leeds..... Can't wait to see this happen with no wires

 

[Andyh82]

At least we can look forward to clean trains “because they are filthy” and a Sunday service “that doesn’t currently exist” according to Shapps.

 

[Djgr]

According to the Liverpool Echo the renationalisation of Northern is the best news of the decade!

"Seriously, best news I've had all month. No... all year. No wait... ALL DECADE No more #NorthernFail.""

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/northern-rail-being-renationalised-best-17652701

Presumably they are all mistaken?

 

[158756]

The 'cleaning' is indeed abysmal and just embarrassing and baffling on the new stock. I just hope that this upheaval lifts the lid on what actually goes on (or doesn't go on) on the likes of Newton Heath.

How many cleaners actually work at Newton Heath? The presentation of stock has always been terrible, but to do anything else costs money - clean trains or a better NHS? The fundamental problem with Northern, whoever runs it, is it's a total basket case, made up entirely of lines only open for political reasons but with politicians understandably keen to prevent the drain on the Treasury growing any further.

 

[Royston Vasey]

No nothing of the sort, the Examiner have basically just messed the story up.

The DfT announcement says extra electric trains will increase capacity into Manchester AND Leeds

Not BETWEEN Manchester and Leeds

Of course electric trains would be no good between Manchester and Leeds and in any case this is a TPE Route, but the Examiner won’t know this.

What do we think this means then? 319s? 365s?

 

[exesoundtech]

The ticket machines are not owned by Arriva. They are owned and maintained by the supplier under a mansgement contract who take a commission.

Not sure where that information comes from - but I'm afraid it's not true. The machines are owned by Arriva Rail North Ltd, with the supplier providing maintenance services under a pretty conventional SLA (service level agreement) contract. No commission is taken by the supplier to my knowledge. I would expect the ticket machines are listed as a "franchise asset" so therefore automatically transfer to the new entity, along with the SLA contract - as per the text in the information for suppliers section of the OLR website:

https://www.northern.olrholdings.co.uk/faqs/suppliers

On 1 March 2020 almost all supplier contracts will transfer to Northern Trains Limited as part of a Transfer Scheme. Unless you are notified to the contrary, your supply contract will transfer. The Transfer Scheme is a legal process where contracts are automatically transferred from one train operator to another.

 

[323 Class]

I quite agree. In the great scheme of things it's probably the quickest and relatively cheapest way to get a quick win 'see the difference we have made' however, so you would think it would be an attractive option for the new managers, DfT and the politicians. A few cleaners no doubt paid minimum wage and probably employed by an agency, would seem pretty cheap in railway expenditure terms, yet for many passengers it would make a difference. I found travel on a new CAF DMU recently a rather poor experience due to messy state it was in. Hardly a good advert when you buy £m new stock but can't even be bothered to clean it - or so it would appear (although in most cases it is of course the great British mucky public that leave pubic places in a mess but that's another story!)

On a related matter it was interesting for me to note, on a refurbed Northern 158 last week how 'basic' the refurb seemed to be - really the lowest amount of money you could get away with spending I thought, and claim the train had been refurbished - stark contrast to the EMT 158s for example - not that I especially like what EMT did, but it was done to higher spec I would have said.

How many Northern trains needed a refurb / PRM? Maybe the budget isn't what East Midlands have.
There is a definite difference when you go to Nottingham / Derby. Even the bus shelters have dot matrix displays showing the arrival times of services. That's not something you see in Greater Manchester. Even rural Cornwall has them. Btw I'm only just in Derbyshire 3/4 mile and this is the poor under invested bit that's been tagged with Gtr Manchester.

 

[Jozhua]

You will not see that ever being admitted by the DfT, far better to hang someone else to dry for it.

This is the crux of the problem in the UK industry, the DfT is too concerned about ensuring the system is set up in a way it protects itself from any blame and being able to find a scapegoat when something goes wrong, rather than providing good rail services.

The closest I can get to a like is quoting your post and saying yes.

will it make any diference ? same trains, same staff same timetable...same issues !

Probably not, I reckon there will be about a 10-20% improvement, if you can measure it that way. By far the biggest improvement will be people shouting at the government instead of some temporary franchise brand.

The same Tory government who haven't delivered infrastructure promises you mean??

Yes.

Go ask 100 random Northern Rail users who they think is to blame for the things caused by the DfT, and almost all of them will blame the operator because the Government always tries to portray such false narrative that the operator is at fault all the time and never them.

The following article is from today's Huddersfield Examiner

New operator makes bold promises
According to Mr Shapps, the new state-owned operator will:

• Get rid of all Pacer trains in Yorkshire “by the spring”
• Move electric trains from other parts of the network to the north so they can “boost capacity” for passengers travelling between Leeds and Manchester
• Trial new technology to “identify crowding pinch points”
• Extend platforms at 30 stations on the Northern network to accommodate longer trains
• Deep clean all trains and “review the cleaning pattern”
• Prioritise improving Sunday services

The new technology being trialled sounds like a great way to delay and obfuscate any concrete infrastructure spending plan, despite of course NPR, which will offer conservative party donors an opportunity to buy up land along the planned route and sell it to the government for a generous profit. Or it will act as a way to allow politicians to avoid having to mix with the scummy orcs up north in order to identify network issues.

At the end of the day we need money for Castlefield upgrades, one of only three pieces of rail infrastructure in the UK fully classed as congested, and the only one with no works being done to resolve it. We also need money for more electrification, which can be done for less money by setting up a rolling programme, which could also include areas like the Midlands. More money is also needed for Hope Valley Line upgrades and resolving some congested bits of Sheffield, especially to the North. More money is also undoubtedly needed to resolve issues around the network I'm less familiar with.

 

[Andyh82]

According to the Liverpool Echo the renationalisation of Northern is the best news of the decade!

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/northern-rail-being-renationalised-best-17652701

I hate stories like that that are just made up of tweets from people who know nothing on the subject. A lot of those people are going to be very disappointed.

 

[yorkie]

In order to avoid duplication of discussion, and this thread becoming unwieldy, can we please try to use a range of different threads to discuss issues related to this announcement, rather than try to get every aspect of Northern into one thread?

Threads that are currently active (last post within the past 12 hours!) which are related to Northern that may be of interest or relevance include:

• Should franchises keep the same branding?
• How could Northern & TPE services be reorganised and could 365s be brought in?
• Proposals to split Northern into two franchises: How would you do it?
• Hoping the new Northern operator will order more self powered trains immediately
• Proposal to split cross-Manchester services and re-route trains heading west to run from Victoria
• Sheffield area remodelling: current layout is not fit for purpose
• Northern Complimentary tickets and their validity with the new operator
• Driver assessment for Northern: should the change of operator be a concern?

 

[Meerkat]

I can imagine both sides would like to avoid a protracted and complex argument where they both could end up with worse outcomes than may have been agreed between them, take up a lot of effort doing so and the only people who win are the lawyers

DfT are in a strong position - any legal action would take ages and would put off bidders to buy Arriva off DB. Whether DfT are competent to use that advantage is another matter.

This is a good example of franchising - supplier fails to deliver, supplier pays heavily for that failure.
When BR failed to deliver we lost out on the service and had to pay to fix it.

As for train cleaning - do you reckon Shapps has a plan for what the guards can do once he has taken the doors away from them?

 

[Llama]

What do we think this means then? 319s? 365s?

323s.

 

[Llama]

How many cleaners actually work at Newton Heath? The presentation of stock has always been terrible, but to do anything else costs money - clean trains or a better NHS? The fundamental problem with Northern, whoever runs it, is it's a total basket case, made up entirely of lines only open for political reasons but with politicians understandably keen to prevent the drain on the Treasury growing any further.

The time allocated to clean a unit to spec is/was 45 minutes if I'm not mistaken. I've seen them 'done' in less than 5. I've not seen evidence of driving cabs having been cleaned (as in surfaces being wiped down as they're supposed to be) in over ten years now.

 

[Railman]

It might just be me,but I think on the shop floor there was a big void between Northern Management and the staff on the ground in particular train crew. The guards dispute probably didnt help, but the large scale refusal of rest day working etc smelled of poor industrial relations and "bad feelings". A clear out of the management team could create some quick wins if they can bring on board the staff?

 

[matacaster]

Not sure where that information comes from - but I'm afraid it's not true. The machines are owned by Arriva Rail North Ltd, with the supplier providing maintenance services under a pretty conventional SLA (service level agreement) contract. No commission is taken by the supplier to my knowledge. I would expect the ticket machines are listed as a "franchise asset" so therefore automatically transfer to the new entity, along with the SLA contract - as per the text in the information for suppliers section of the OLR website:

https://www.northern.olrholdings.co.uk/faqs/suppliers

As someone who has tried to use one of these ticket machines, I fear one could not by any stretch of imagination call these a "franchise asset"

 

[Signal Head]

You will not see that ever being admitted by the DfT, far better to hang someone else to dry for it.

This is the crux of the problem in the UK industry, the DfT is too concerned about ensuring the system is set up in a way it protects itself from any blame and being able to find a scapegoat when something goes wrong, rather than providing good rail services.

This is why we so badly need the Tories out. The same is happening in education where schools are having their hands tied behind their backs and funding cut and later on an Ofsted inspector comes around and bins the school off with a 3 rating and then the school gets slammed in the press but nobody reports on the fact that you can't provide education on a shoestring.

[like button]

 

[Mogster]

I hate stories like that that are just made up of tweets from people who know nothing on the subject. A lot of those people are going to be very disappointed.

Earlier someone announced loudly on my 2 car 150 crush loaded Southport service “at least we’ve only got another 4 weeks of this”.

Yes there are going to be some very disappointed punters come March...

 

[vlad]

Call me cynical but I don't think things will change much over at least the next year....

Given that from personal experience pretty much all the problems with Northern keeping to timetable are due to TPE running late (your experience may differ), does that mean TPE are also going to disappear soon?