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Northern issue "DO NOT TRAVEL" warning for 08/09/2024

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Moonshot

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Fine. I'll use the car every week. In fact, I'll just carry on doing that every week. It's much more reliable than the rail system. Is that what you want?
Matters not one jot to me what you do.....I'm simply pointing out the reality. And that reality is that ( as is so often pointed out by the smart opinion on here) Sunday services on Northern Network are simply unreliable....and will keep getting the Do Not Travel advice to the general public. It really is that simple. Staff are not volunteering in any great numbers ( Conductor grade especially) to actually work Sundays. Its that simple. And until that situation changes ( as I have said more than a few times) , then Sunday services will continue to be culled.

Except it very much isn't. It's their own lack of planning.
You cannot plan a service if there are no staff to actually run it.
 
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PyrahnaRanger

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Remember that as far as getting RRBs in place, Coach/Bus Drivers working EU rules have mandated driving and rest periods within and between duties, as well as requiring a 45 hour rest period each week, and unlike train drivers, can’t choose to work their rest days*

This means that operators would need spare drivers of which there are fewer due to demographics and the introduction of things like driver cpc, or simply don’t bother covering work that doesn’t pay well or comes in last minute so they can safeguard their “normal” operations.

*this is probably the main reason I don’t understand why there is such a reliance on RDW, in the coach industry we just can’t do it!
 

TUC

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Matters not one jot to me what you do.....I'm simply pointing out the reality. And that reality is that ( as is so often pointed out by the smart opinion on here) Sunday services on Northern Network are simply unreliable....and will keep getting the Do Not Travel advice to the general public. It really is that simple. Staff are not volunteering in any great numbers ( Conductor grade especially) to actually work Sundays. Its that simple. And until that situation changes ( as I have said more than a few times) , then Sunday services will continue to be culled.
Yet again, the rail industry shows its weakness. With any other business, the response to customers going elsewhere would be to urgently ask 'what do we need to do to win them back?' With the rail industry, it's a shrug of the shoulders.
 

Goldfish62

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Yet again, the rail industry shows its weakness. With any other business, the response to customers going elsewhere would be to urgently ask 'what do we need to do to win them back?' With the rail industry, it's a shrug of the shoulders.
Yep, only started with Covid and has been continued ever since because the TOCs have no revenue incentive, ie, they couldn't care less whether people travel or not.
 

uww11x

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Matters not one jot to me what you do.....I'm simply pointing out the reality. And that reality is that ( as is so often pointed out by the smart opinion on here) Sunday services on Northern Network are simply unreliable....and will keep getting the Do Not Travel advice to the general public. It really is that simple. Staff are not volunteering in any great numbers ( Conductor grade especially) to actually work Sundays. Its that simple. And until that situation changes ( as I have said more than a few times) , then Sunday services will continue to be culled.


You cannot plan a service if there are no staff to actually run it.
You can, don't submit WTT schedules for all the trains in the first place. Not rocket science Moonshot
 

43066

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Why set rostering months in advance when there are so many unknown variables? Yes, it's reasonable that staff known in advance when they are going to be working, but in the NHS that would be the month before, not months before.

Because the railway runs to a published timetable, which only changes a couple of times per year, and that is the basis on which rosters must be built. Surely that’s obvious?

We are talking about short notice alternations here, so what point are you making by saying “why roster them for days when fewer are needed”? Are you suggesting that those staff should be told at short notice not to come in that day, and instead come in on days when they aren’t required to work, and won’t have been rostered?

It once again comes across that: a. you fundamentally misunderstand railway rostering, and b. clearly think train crew can just be treated like a casual workforce on zero hours contracts. It has been explained many times in the past why that is not the case. In any case, drivers sitting around spare isn’t why Northern are cancelling trains…

As for the inevitable NHS comparison - from direct experience of friends in the health field many NHS staff have predictable rosters, known well in advance. Once again it needs to be pointed out that the NHS is a money pit, even more reliant on overtime than the railway, and suffering from endless staff shortages, so in what way is it a useful comparison?

Yet again, the rail industry shows its weakness. With any other business, the response to customers going elsewhere would be to urgently ask 'what do we need to do to win them back?' With the rail industry, it's a shrug of the shoulders.

Hardly. You asked one person whether they were happy about you personally using the car. Why on earth should anyone care what one individual chooses to do? Especially as rail passenger numbers continue to grow strongly.

Ironically one genuine similarity with the NHS is the fact railway’s passengers do seem to always return, just as reliably as NHS patients.
 
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Moonshot

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You can, don't submit WTT schedules for all the trains in the first place. Not rocket science Moonshot
In which case , Northern should simply slash services permanently on the west side on a Sunday and just focus on a very small number of services which carry the most passengers ( airport to Blackpool, airport to Liverpool etc ). Everything else should be binned. At least that way they wouldn't actually have to issue do not travel warnings because the services don't exist in the first place.

Yep, only started with Covid and has been continued ever since because the TOCs have no revenue incentive, ie, they couldn't care less whether people travel or not.
Some truth in that
 

Krokodil

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In which case , Northern should simply slash services permanently on the west side on a Sunday and just focus on a very small number of services which carry the most passengers ( airport to Blackpool, airport to Liverpool etc ). Everything else should be binned. At least that way they wouldn't actually have to issue do not travel warnings because the services don't exist in the first place.
They certainly shouldn't be advertising services that they've no hope of running. If it takes a stripped-down timetable then so be it. At least it would be honest.
 

Bletchleyite

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Surely workers on optional Sundays literally are on zero hours contracts for that day?

If they want the railway to commit to give them work, they should in return commit to take it, i.e. move to committed Sundays.

They certainly shouldn't be advertising services that they've no hope of running. If it takes a stripped-down timetable then so be it. At least it would be honest.

Totally agree. An honest timetable based on likely volunteers and maxed out train lengths is preferable to random guessing.
 

Falcon1200

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Northern are saving a fortune not operating the trains

Are they really saving that much though? Obviously less train mileage so reduced fuel and maintenance costs, but presumably all non-Guard staff rostered to work still turn out and get paid, regardless of whether there are trains for them, to drive or sell tickets for, for example. Which does of course raise the question of why this is not a huge incentive to sort things out and restore the full service?
 

Moonshot

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They certainly shouldn't be advertising services that they've no hope of running. If it takes a stripped-down timetable then so be it. At least it would be honest.
Yes indeed. Even though I work for them, I really don't know why they advertise services knowing that it is highly likely they won't run. I can absolutely guarantee you that the next time I'm actually due to work a booked Sunday, I will turn up to a docket that has been mutilated with pen and services crossed off
 

43066

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Surely workers on optional Sundays literally are on zero hours contracts for that day?

If they want the railway to commit to give them work, they should in return commit to take it, i.e. move to committed Sundays.

They don’t want the railway to commit to give them work on a day off, they (mostly) want Sundays inside.

The suggestion above seemed to be that staff who are rostered to work on a Sunday should be turned away at short notice when there is nothing for them to do.
 

Krokodil

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Surely workers on optional Sundays literally are on zero hours contracts for that day?

If they want the railway to commit to give them work, they should in return commit to take it, i.e. move to committed Sundays.
Do the staff want Northern to commit to giving them overtime? If Northern wants a reliable seven day service, it needs to employ seven days worth of staff, not six.

In the meantime offer an attractive overtime rate. What's the current Sunday rate for Northern conductors? Time and a quarter? Time and a third?

Totally agree. An honest timetable based on likely volunteers and maxed out train lengths is preferable to random guessing.
Would also save the cost of paying more drivers than you have guards for.
 

skyhigh

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Every man has his price. If the price being offered doesn't result in anyone signing up, increase it until it does. Northern are saving a fortune not operating the trains - given the difference between bus and rail wages the bus drivers could be being offered quad time or even more - are they?
They are not saving a fortune by not operating trains. Clearly, they're not paying guards salaries and fuel. But the drivers are still in work, being paid as normal.

From a quick look online, the average bus driver salary is around £14ph. From memory the Guard rate at Northern is about £20ph. I suspect if you were to offer Guards 200% pay at a guaranteed 12 hours for a Sunday shift you'd find the problem disappeared overnight at a lower cost than paying bus drivers quad time.

Every man has his price - and clearly Guards don't think they're being offered a price they'd accept.
 

Whisky Papa

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On a Sunday there are likely about 5,000 or more urban buses not being used across the country. You just need to be willing to pay enough to the drivers to get them out.

Does anybody know what the situation is regarding drivers' hours regulation for RRB these days? I'm long out of touch, but when UK North operated a huge amount of RRB work during the Stockport blockade in the summer of 2004, their buses went to get the tacho's calibrated as they had been told they would be required to use them. However, I had driven a pre-planned RRB with First Calderline without tacho use about a decade earlier.

If they are required, you can forget urban buses and (more importantly) their drivers - the hours regulations for tachograph operations are considerably stricter than service work and the two do not mix well.
 

scrapy

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They are not saving a fortune by not operating trains. Clearly, they're not paying guards salaries and fuel. But the drivers are still in work, being paid as normal.

From a quick look online, the average bus driver salary is around £14ph. From memory the Guard rate at Northern is about £20ph. I suspect if you were to offer Guards 200% pay at a guaranteed 12 hours for a Sunday shift you'd find the problem disappeared overnight at a lower cost than paying bus drivers quad time.

Every man has his price - and clearly Guards don't think they're being offered a price they'd accept.
Think the guard rate is currently around £17.50p/h. Sundays are time and a quarter with a minimum 6 hours.
 

pokemonsuper9

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If they are required, you can forget urban buses and (more importantly) their drivers - the hours regulations for tachograph operations are considerably stricter than service work and the two do not mix well.
I saw a Preston Bus streetdeck running one of the rail replacement services on my line this week.
 

whoosh

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"Pay enough and get Rail Replacement Buses".

How about pay enough to place Sundays into the working week and hire enough staff to run a seven day a week railway, instead of barely having enough staff to run a six day one and then expecting overtime to magically cover the seventh day.
 

Bletchleyite

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If they are required, you can forget urban buses and (more importantly) their drivers - the hours regulations for tachograph operations are considerably stricter than service work and the two do not mix well.

Urban buses are widely used on RR work, so there's clearly a way to make it work of some kind.

"Pay enough and get Rail Replacement Buses".

How about pay enough to place Sundays into the working week and hire enough staff to run a seven day a week railway, instead of barely having enough staff to run a six day one and then expecting overtime to magically cover the seventh day.

Well, there's that option too. As well as setting a timetable achievable with the numbers they are reliably getting and can be sure to operate, and diagramming maximum train lengths on all services. Part of the issue with the random cancellations is that units are wasted and can't be used for lengthening.
 

Whisky Papa

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I saw a Preston Bus streetdeck running one of the rail replacement services on my line this week.
Yes, we have some Blackpool Transport single-deckers on Castleton bridge replacement RRBs in Todmorden currently.

It doesn't answer the question as to whether they require tachographs. From the driver's point of view, if they have a whole week of work, it doesn't matter too much - it would all be under the stricter rules anyway. But if a tacho is required just for a Sunday shift, then (certainly when I was driving) the whole week had to conform to those rest period requirements, which are much stricter than service work. I would also point out that many service bus drivers may well require the Sunday off to stay within the hours regulations, even on service work you need 24 hours a fortnight off!

I understood that pre-planned, scheduled RRB work was exempt as it would be possible to trace a vehicle and driver through the timetable and drivers' roster, the same as service work. 'Go and sit at Buxton for eight hours and we'll call you if needed' would presumably require a tacho though, as I assume would 'How quickly can you get three coaches to Bolton?' or similar emergency work. I am only seeking clarification from those still involved in the industry.
 

12LDA28C

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"Pay enough and get Rail Replacement Buses".

How about pay enough to place Sundays into the working week and hire enough staff to run a seven day a week railway, instead of barely having enough staff to run a six day one and then expecting overtime to magically cover the seventh day.

Indeed. And who do you think would have to authorise and fund that level of expenditure?
 

pokemonsuper9

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"Pay enough and get Rail Replacement Buses".

How about pay enough to place Sundays into the working week and hire enough staff to run a seven day a week railway, instead of barely having enough staff to run a six day one and then expecting overtime to magically cover the seventh day.
You can't pay people enough to run trains through a possession.
There's a problem with Rail replacements even outside of Sundays, making them less used, making them less used and repeat.
 

meld3

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So, reading all these comments and info, it seems that TOCs expect an entire RRB to run at LESS COST than they would pay a Train Driver for the same shift ??
 

Lewisham2221

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Does anybody know what the situation is regarding drivers' hours regulation for RRB these days? I'm long out of touch, but when UK North operated a huge amount of RRB work during the Stockport blockade in the summer of 2004, their buses went to get the tacho's calibrated as they had been told they would be required to use them. However, I had driven a pre-planned RRB with First Calderline without tacho use about a decade earlier.

If they are required, you can forget urban buses and (more importantly) their drivers - the hours regulations for tachograph operations are considerably stricter than service work and the two do not mix well.
If it's pre-planned, it can be operated as a "scheduled" service, so under 50km can operate on domestic rules. Over 50km requires adherence to EU hours rules and use of tachographs. As you correctly point out, this is also a significant factor to availability issues.

I believe there used to be some sort of rule that allowed scheduled services over 50km to operate without a tachograph - so long as they still complied with EU hours rules; I think drivers had to carry some sort of evidence of compliance with them - a copy of their rota or something like that, but this was some years before I held a PCV licence so, I'm not 100% certain. IIRC, it was the removal of this relaxation that led to a number of long distance bus services being split into smaller chunks.

Service bus operations are at their absolute minimum on a Sunday. Stagecoach, First, Arriva and Go Ahead will have vehicles sat around in depots all around the country. Accessible coaches perhaps not, but certainly accessible buses.
This part is correct. Note that, as per the above, the vast majority of these won't be fitted with tachographs, however. That's only the start though...

London in particular will have a couple of thousand vehicles sat around doing nothing on a Sunday (the total fleet is apparently nearly 9,000), and driving them up to Manchester would only take four to five hours.
Google maps is currently suggesting in excess of 4 hours to drive a car from London to Manchester. AFAIK, London buses have speed limiters fitted which restrict them to 30 or 40mph. That's going to make the journey much longer - it's going to require a break and probably additional drivers.

And bus driver wages in London aren't high, so if you offered drivers quad or five times time and two nights in a reasonable hotel while they do it you're going to get plenty of takers.
AFAIK a London bus drivers pay is roughly equivalent to that of a Northern conductor. Fair enough, there is a difference in the cost of living, but if throwing money at the situation is the answer, surely that would be the solution to getting conductors working Sundays in the first place? Believe it or not, bus drivers also like having days off to relax and/or spend time with friends and family - there's not likely to be a huge crowd of drivers volunteering to give up a whole weekend.

Every man has his price. If the price being offered doesn't result in anyone signing up, increase it until it does. Northern are saving a fortune not operating the trains - given the difference between bus and rail wages the bus drivers could be being offered quad time or even more - are they?
If they've got the money to throw at quad time, hotel costs etc, they've got the money to solve the problem properly.

It is fantasy to suggest Network Rail has contracted every spare accessible bus and coach on a Sunday.
Agreed, but see the above. Vehicles isn't the issue. Driver availability is. Even if you had drivers who did want to do it, it would cause absolute chaos with scheduling in a regular bus company (not to mention ensuring drivers knew the route etc as well). Even at a smaller bus/coach company, you'd ideally want a couple of weeks notice to be able to plan driver coverage properly around existing work.

If you're willing to get on the phone to every taxi operation in the country and pay as much as is asked, the number of available taxis is effectively infinite.
Again, if they've got that kind of money, they've got the money to solve the root cause.

It simply is not good enough.
Agreed. Although the lack of replacement bus services is not the real issue
 

skyhigh

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If they've got the money to throw at quad time, hotel costs etc, they've got the money to solve the problem properly.
Exactly. Spending a huge amount on paying for bus drivers to have quadruple time and hotels when a smaller amount would sort the issue (at least in the interim until a deal can be made bringing Sunday into the working week) isn't the way to solve the problem.
 

Whisky Papa

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Urban buses are widely used on RR work, so there's clearly a way to make it work of some kind.

Correct, as my post acknowledged - I drove them myself on one one occasion. However, that was work that was pre-planned. I think the chances of being able to do Sunday work at short notice is less convincing, although I suppose it depends on how much Sunday service work the operator already has to cover - some probably have relatively little these days. Again, even this assumes no tachographs required.

Incidentally, offering 'multiples of pay' has not really been the bus industry way since 1986. A relatively high basic rate with minimal enhancements became the norm, to simplify costings amongst other reasons. We got flat time for any overtime or rest day work, except after 1300 on Saturdays or all day Sunday when we got a whopping 8-10% enhancement for overtime or 7th day work (rostered 6th days still at flat time on Sunday!).
 

Bletchleyite

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Have a load of guards withdrawn their offer to work Sunday at short notice (as they might, and are entitled to do, if management have annoyed them), or have Northern had an idea of this for ages and are just incompetent?

I can't help but imagine some managerial heads in a collective bucket of sand, hoping the problem would go away.
 

Clarence Yard

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So, reading all these comments and info, it seems that TOCs expect an entire RRB to run at LESS COST than they would pay a Train Driver for the same shift ??

No they don’t. The cost of RRB doesn’t usually come into it.

The problem is a) getting enough players to enter the RRB market and then b) them getting the drivers.

Short notice RRB are incredibly difficult to resource these days.
 

Whisky Papa

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If it's pre-planned, it can be operated as a "scheduled" service, so under 50km can operate on domestic rules. Over 50km requires adherence to EU hours rules and use of tachographs. As you correctly point out, this is also a significant factor to availability issues.

Thank you, that confirms what I understood.


Agreed. Although the lack of replacement bus services is not the real issue

Yes, the RRB situation is a monumental red herring here.
 
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