Northern issue penalty fares after ticket office left unmanned

[Mutant Lemming]

T

I now fear for the human race...



.

… yes, when you get Stalinesque here today, gone tomorrow franchisees laying down the law.

 

[Bantamzen]

@yorkie, sorry throwing some random happening without a sequence of events adds nothing to your argument, especially when it involves a completely different operator.

But for clarification, I do worry that the default position of this sub-forum is "TOC wrong, customer right", and this is evidenced time and again by members jumping to conclusions only to find additional evidence that makes their conclusions look silly.

I have said it before, and you have ignored it before, but I am not a TOC apologist, nor am I anti-passenger. Someday you will wrap your head around the fact that I am a passenger, a very regular one, and one that is tired of a minority of people scamming, dodging and working the system to their benefit at the expense of the rest of us. I am fully in favour of a fair, and less expensive ticketing system for all passengers. I am also in favour of a publically run, for the public system that prioritizes the needs of the public over any private bodies involved.

But this will never happen when people try to excuse people who ignore the requirements of buying a ticket before boarding. Because by doing so people are giving boardrooms, and Whitehall continuous excuses to keep bumping up prices. And as someone commited to fighting for passenger rights, you should recognise this. If you don't then we have nothing more to discuss on this matter.

… yes, when you get Stalinesque here today, gone tomorrow franchisees laying down the law.

You do understand how privately operated franchises work? If they don't like the conditions then they up the price, or they bail and leave the cost of recovery to the taxpayers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

i beg to differView attachment 52886

Not exactly clear in high levels of light, is it?

In any case, it violates the sensible principle of not using VDU equipment to display static information (it will never be anything other than a ticket machine, so that needs to go on a very prominent physical sign).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not? Larger information screens are rapidly becoming the norm, so why not with TVMs? As I said previously, actually looking at the device gives a big clue as to what it is. That is how most people deal with an ever changing environment, using the senses available to them and making decisions based on that information. And funnily enough tens, hundreds, maybe even millions of people have been able to cope with the switch to new and larger ticket machines.

How about infrequent users?

One thing I've noticed about US operations is that there are generally very prominent "how do I ride the train?" and "points of etiquette" links on their website. So it's easy to find out in advance what to do.

Is that true of any UK TOC? Er, no.

Is there signage that tells you that at each station? Er, no.

Surely we should be making this kind of thing better. UK buses are terrible at it - even given that in most cases it's a simple "pay the driver having told him where you're going", that isn't the default in many or even most countries in the world. So why don't bus stops have signs saying that, and publicising the fares?

It really is something the UK is utterly awful at.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some valid points on here and some unrealistic ones too.

I'd like to post a situation that happened to me on Friday.

I went to the ticket office to buy a return ahead of time.

I was going to travel off peak, around 0940.

I went to the ticket office to be told that I couldn't buy the ticket until 0915. It was probably 0830.

The plan was to buy a ticket, go get breakfast and get on the train.

The chap point blank refused to sell me an off peak. I checked the TVM too.

In the end I bought a peak as I couldn't be bothered to faff about.

What would have happened if I'd returned at 0915 to a huge queue?

Madness.

Agreed, what he should have done is told you the restrictions and then put a RESTRICTIONS ADVISED stamp across it - then that's a slam dunk case if you then misused it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no facility to issue the ticket at Garforth when the ticket office is closed, and no signs to say where the machine is, so it's unclear what you think people should do and how long they should allow to do it, but it sounds like you think people should allow a lot of extra time to cross the bridge and back and conduct a sweep of the station, is that right?

The fundamental problem here is, as ever, Northern doing things on the cheap to the disadvantage of the passenger, which is their standard practice.

They should, for urban commuter stations like these, be copying Metrolink's pattern. At least two TVMs on the station, ideally more. If platform accesses are separate, a minimum of one on each platform, which should be located immediately adjacent to and obvious to all entering at each platform access point. If there is only one station entrance, at least two which you will pass when you use that entrance to reach any platform.

It's dead simple to get it right. Northern just can't be bothered, and it stinks. Other TOCs manage it perfectly well, as do Metrolink.

 

[Bantamzen]

How about infrequent users?

One thing I've noticed about US operations is that there are generally very prominent "how do I ride the train?" and "points of etiquette" links on their website. So it's easy to find out in advance what to do.

Is that true of any UK TOC? Er, no.

Is there signage that tells you that at each station? Er, no.

Surely we should be making this kind of thing better. UK buses are terrible at it - even given that in most cases it's a simple "pay the driver having told him where you're going", that isn't the default in many or even most countries in the world. So why don't bus stops have signs saying that, and publicising the fares?

It really is something the UK is utterly awful at.

Now I don't disagree with that the UK does lots of things badly, but so do many others. For example here on Corfu where I am currently holidaying, travelling around the island on public transport is a challenge. But yet lots of people manage it, including many of the 2.2 million people that visit this island every year.

My point in all this is that most of this thread has wrapped itself up in a level of angst about how to identify a ticket machine located most of the time on a platform. It isn't rocket science, most people can and do identify them and use them. It should be obvious to most just how ridiculous the angst displayed is, but sadly it seems not. I can only hope that someone, someday comes up with some kind of guide to life, the universe, and everything...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now I don't disagree with that the UK does lots of things badly, but so do many others. For example here on Corfu where I am currently holidaying, travelling around the island on public transport is a challenge. But yet lots of people manage it, including many of the 2.2 million people that visit this island every year.

My point in all this is that most of this thread has wrapped itself up in a level of angst about how to identify a ticket machine located most of the time on a platform. It isn't rocket science, most people can and do identify them and use them. It should be obvious to most just how ridiculous the angst displayed is, but sadly it seems not. I can only hope that someone, someday comes up with some kind of guide to life, the universe, and everything...

This is to me outrageously elitist in its approach. Public transport is for the public and it should be made clear how to use it - clear websites, clear signage, clear ticketing facilities etc. We need to make the journey flow from the passenger deciding to travel to them arriving at their destination.

That another particular operation is also inadequate is not an excuse.

As I said, near enough every US transit agency has information like this: (Just one example, I got it by Googling "how to ride")

https://www.ridetherapid.org/howtoride/how-to-ride

We need the same. Particularly where we are going to be fining[1] people for non-compliance (it's a lot *less* bad with UK buses as the driver will just sell you a ticket).

[1] I know it legally isn't but it is tantamount to one, so I believe it fair to use the term.

 

[Bantamzen]

This is to me outrageously elitist in its approach. Public transport is for the public and it should be made clear how to use it - clear websites, clear signage, clear ticketing facilities etc. We need to make the journey flow from the passenger deciding to travel to them arriving at their destination.

That another particular operation is also inadequate is not an excuse.

As I said, near enough every US transit agency has information like this: (Just one example, I got it by Googling "how to ride")

https://www.ridetherapid.org/howtoride/how-to-ride

We need the same. Particularly where we are going to be fining[1] people for non-compliance (it's a lot *less* bad with UK buses as the driver will just sell you a ticket).

[1] I know it legally isn't but it is tantamount to one, so I believe it fair to use the term.

You are right they do, I've used them in LA, Oahu and NYC. But is all this information available offline, as in a subway station in New York, or a bus stop on Sunset Blvd? Because we are not debating the availability of online information on travelling via online sources, there are plenty, perhaps even too many in the UK. What we are debating is the on-site experience.

Is it what it should be? Probably not. But then as you will well be aware, Northern is one of the most heavily subsidised TOCs in the country, much to the annoyance of many on this very forum as well as the current siting government. So realistically can they be expected to suddenly throw all the resources at this instantly, or would it not be unreasonable to expect a medium term rollout, providing all stations at least some provision initally whilst working towards wider provision in the long run.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are right they do, I've used them in LA, Oahu and NYC. But is all this information available offline, as in a subway station in New York, or a bus stop on Sunset Blvd? Because we are not debating the availability of online information on travelling via online sources, there are plenty, perhaps even too many in the UK. What we are debating is the on-site experience.

The whole experience is relevant - but what would be hard or expensive about shoving all that on a poster and placing it such that you can't not walk past it on entering the station by any route?

Then, having a prominent second poster saying in large font "You must have a ticket before your board the train. The ticket machine is located on platform 2 and accepts card payments. If you wish to pay cash, you must obtain a promise to pay ticket from this machine to be able to pay cash on board or at your destination".

It is not hard. It is not expensive.

Is it what it should be? Probably not. But then as you will well be aware, Northern is one of the most heavily subsidised TOCs in the country, much to the annoyance of many on this very forum as well as the current siting government. So realistically can they be expected to suddenly throw all the resources at this instantly, or would it not be unreasonable to expect a medium term rollout, providing all stations at least some provision initally whilst working towards wider provision in the long run.

Then they must bin their Penalty Fares scheme, and similarly their £80 settlements, and go back to on board revenue protection. It is to me not acceptable to operate an incriminating, anti-passenger approach if they are not going to have their house in a proper order.

It is an utter joke, like the entire of the rest of their tin-pot, inadequate operation.

 

[35B]

You are right they do, I've used them in LA, Oahu and NYC. But is all this information available offline, as in a subway station in New York, or a bus stop on Sunset Blvd? Because we are not debating the availability of online information on travelling via online sources, there are plenty, perhaps even too many in the UK. What we are debating is the on-site experience.

Is it what it should be? Probably not. But then as you will well be aware, Northern is one of the most heavily subsidised TOCs in the country, much to the annoyance of many on this very forum as well as the current siting government. So realistically can they be expected to suddenly throw all the resources at this instantly, or would it not be unreasonable to expect a medium term rollout, providing all stations at least some provision initally whilst working towards wider provision in the long run.

That argument doesn’t stand up. Any good retailer will seek to make it as straightforward as possible for a customer to make a purchase, so as to encourage the willing customer to part with the money required. If Northern are spending that much on machines, and doing nothing to ensure that people can see and find the things, it suggests a lack of competence. It’s a basic aspect of service and the utter lack of it suggests at best a complete disregard for how they are seen by those customers. At worst, it suggests an attempt to entrap people into ticketless travel as being more remunerative.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is that tied to the timetable or realtime running information? If the latter then it's possible (though an edge-case) for someone to get caught out by a late-running 'peak' train.

I think it’s just set to the booked times.

 

[Hadders]

@yorkie, sorry throwing some random happening without a sequence of events adds nothing to your argument, especially when it involves a completely different operator.

But for clarification, I do worry that the default position of this sub-forum is "TOC wrong, customer right", and this is evidenced time and again by members jumping to conclusions only to find additional evidence that makes their conclusions look silly.

I have said it before, and you have ignored it before, but I am not a TOC apologist, nor am I anti-passenger. Someday you will wrap your head around the fact that I am a passenger, a very regular one, and one that is tired of a minority of people scamming, dodging and working the system to their benefit at the expense of the rest of us. I am fully in favour of a fair, and less expensive ticketing system for all passengers. I am also in favour of a publically run, for the public system that prioritizes the needs of the public over any private bodies involved.

But this will never happen when people try to excuse people who ignore the requirements of buying a ticket before boarding. Because by doing so people are giving boardrooms, and Whitehall continuous excuses to keep bumping up prices. And as someone commited to fighting for passenger rights, you should recognise this. If you don't then we have nothing more to discuss on this matter.



You do understand how privately operated franchises work? If they don't like the conditions then they up the price, or they bail and leave the cost of recovery to the taxpayers.

I've no problem with enforcing buy before you board and penalty fares but it needs to be done consistently. The requirement should be clearly signed and ticket machines should be clearly visible and easily identifiable. The photos posted in this thread of the new TVMs are not acceptable in my idea - there should be prominent signage on them stating 'National Rail Tickets' or words to that effect. There should be a TVM at each entrance to a station. If this is not possible then there should be clear signage stating where the TVM can be found.

The fundamental problem here is, as ever, Northern doing things on the cheap to the disadvantage of the passenger, which is their standard practice.

Spot on. This is typical Northern. Other train operators manage to do it properly.

 

[Bantamzen]

The whole experience is relevant - but what would be hard or expensive about shoving all that on a poster and placing it such that you can't not walk past it on entering the station by any route?

Then, having a prominent second poster saying in large font "You must have a ticket before your board the train. The ticket machine is located on platform 2 and accepts card payments. If you wish to pay cash, you must obtain a promise to pay ticket from this machine to be able to pay cash on board or at your destination".

It is not hard. It is not expensive.



Then they must bin their Penalty Fares scheme, and similarly their £80 settlements, and go back to on board revenue protection. It is to me not acceptable to operate an incriminating, anti-passenger approach if they are not going to have their house in a proper order.

It is an utter joke, like the entire of the rest of their tin-pot, inadequate operation.

May I ask how often you use them? In a normal working day I use 4 Northern trains a day, and if travelling to other work sites more still. And whilst they are not perfect, the vast majority of the time they get me from A to B and somtimes to C pretty much when I expect. It is a totally ridiculous argument to state that any company is anti-customer, in fact it verges on paranoia.

I suggest to everyone angry at Northern to actually think about how private business models work, then consider why these models have been allowed to seep into public transport. I then suggest you direct any anger to the people responsible for creating this model. And if that is too much to handle, then I can't help you other than to say I am not happy to pay for your mistakes.

 

[yorkie]

@yorkie, sorry throwing some random happening without a sequence of events adds nothing to your argument, especially when it involves a completely different operator.

I am not the one inserting "random happenings" into this thread. You used an analogy that was totally inappropriate and I mentioned a railway journey which happened to me that is totally relevant and yet you wish to conveniently ignore it just because it was another operator, even though the exact same thing could easily happen with Northern. Indeed people have found themselves in a similar position, but with no staff at the destination. I know of a forum member who called Northern asking them what to do and they said they could leave the station and did not have to pay. I do not think anyone is compelled to remain within station premises, as you appear to be suggesting, if there is no facility to pay at all on their journey.

But for clarification, I do worry that the default position of this sub-forum is "TOC wrong, customer right", and this is evidenced time and again by members jumping to conclusions only to find additional evidence that makes their conclusions look silly.

Well that's ironic; I suggest you ensure that you are correct before you claim others are.

But this will never happen when people try to excuse people who ignore the requirements of buying a ticket before boarding. Because by doing so people are giving boardrooms, and Whitehall continuous excuses to keep bumping up prices. And as someone commited to fighting for passenger rights, you should recognise this. If you don't then we have nothing more to discuss on this matter.

If you read my posts, you will realise that I am not trying to excuse people who "ignore" the requirements. You are the one who is ignoring the fact that TOCs do not always ensure that people can actually pay before boarding, or indeed at any point during or at the end of their journey, and that anyone who is in such a position is not - as you suggest - similar to someone walking out of a supermarket without paying for goods, which is clearly totally wrong.

I think you should accept you made some mistakes, posted incorrect and misleading analogies and yes I agree there is then nothing more for us to discuss on the matter, but I will correct you when I see you posting things that are not right.

 

[Basher]

I travelled from Todmorden to Leeds (Southport Leeds service) on Wednesday, the only time I saw the conductor was when he kept appearing from the rear driving cab to open the doors,. Not once did he check any travel tickets, is this a normal way of conductors working on this route?

 

[Bletchleyite]

May I ask how often you use them? In a normal working day I use 4 Northern trains a day, and if travelling to other work sites more still. And whilst they are not perfect, the vast majority of the time they get me from A to B and somtimes to C pretty much when I expect. It is a totally ridiculous argument to state that any company is anti-customer, in fact it verges on paranoia.

Rarely these days, but it is quite clear when I do, and when I use other, more sensible TOCs that they are an incredibly poorly managed operation.

I suggest to everyone angry at Northern to actually think about how private business models work, then consider why these models have been allowed to seep into public transport. I then suggest you direct any anger to the people responsible for creating this model. And if that is too much to handle, then I can't help you other than to say I am not happy to pay for your mistakes.

This would be true if other TOCs were the same - but they aren't - none of them at all, in fact. To me that says it's Northern's management who are just grossly incompetent.

 

[yorkie]

May I ask how often you use them? In a normal working day I use 4 Northern trains a day, and if travelling to other work sites more still. And whilst they are not perfect, the vast majority of the time they get me from A to B and somtimes to C pretty much when I expect. It is a totally ridiculous argument to state that any company is anti-customer, in fact it verges on paranoia.

Ridiculous and untrue claim.

I know from experience of assisting many people (on here and professionally) that several TOCs have been found to have policies that are inherently anti-customer and/or train their staff to act in a way that is anti-customer. It is not "paranoia".

 

[Bantamzen]

Ridiculous and untrue claim.

I know from experience of assisting many people (on here and professionally) that several TOCs have been found to have policies that are inherently anti-customer and/or train their staff to act in a way that is anti-customer. It is not "paranoia".

I'm sorry Yorkie, but you are simply wrong. Would you care to offer the number of cases you've dealt with versus the number of people that use Northern services. I'd be fascinated by the percentage ratio.

 

[yorkie]

I'm sorry Yorkie, but you are simply wrong. Would you care to offer the number of cases you've dealt with versus the number of people that use Northern services. I'd be fascinated by the percentage ratio.

Cases I am aware of only scratch the surface of any problems that exist.

Talk of "percentage ratios" is ridiculous. Some people have been treated appallingly by train companies such as Northern and if you are suggesting that this is acceptable because it is only a small proportion of the overall passenger figures, then this demonstrates how we are so totally at odds over what we find acceptable that we can never reconcile.

It's very clear that we have completely different values to one another, so we are never going to agree!

 

[Bantamzen]

Cases I am aware of only scratch the surface of any problems that exist.

Talk of "percentage ratios" is ridiculous. Some people have been treated appallingly by train companies such as Northern and if you are suggesting that this is acceptable because it is only a small proportion of the overall passenger figures, then this demonstrates how we are so totally at odds over what we find acceptable that we can never reconcile.

And you know this for certain? Whenever you have talked about Northern issues you have talked in numbers of dozens, yet I board trains every working day with hundreds onboard that get to their destination on time.

I am going to be blunt here, but we most certainly are at odds because you are too blinded by your annoyance at TOCs in general to be subjective anymore. So on one point we can agree, we shall never reconcile.

 

[yorkie]

And you know this for certain? Whenever you have talked about Northern issues you have talked in numbers of dozens, yet I board trains every working day with hundreds onboard that get to their destination on time.

Exactly. You think that it is acceptable for a relatively small proportion of people to be mistreated. I find the numbers to be absolutely unacceptable.

I am going to be blunt here, but we most certainly are at odds because you are too blinded by your annoyance at TOCs in general to be subjective anymore. So on one point we can agree, we shall never reconcile.

If it makes you feel better to think that, you continue to do so

 

[Bantamzen]

Exactly. You think that it is acceptable for a relatively small proportion of people to be mistreated. I find the numbers to be absolutely unacceptable.
If it makes you feel better to think that, you continue to do so

Mistreated in your eyes. You probably don't know all the facts, but but hey let's not allow facts to get in the way of a good story eh?

 

[yorkie]

Mistreated in your eyes. You probably don't know all the facts, but but hey let's not allow facts to get in the way of a good story eh?

I can assure you I have been involved in assisting numerous mistreated passengers, with awareness of the facts.

 

[Bantamzen]

I can assure you I have been involved in assisting numerous mistreated passengers, with awareness of the facts.

So numbers involved against overall numbers, just so we can get some perspective?

 

[yorkie]

So numbers involved against overall numbers, just so we can get some perspective?

Overall numbers of what exactly?

And why? So you can say it's a tiny percentage and therefore it doesn't matter? I've already said my views on that approach above.

 

[sheff1]

Seriously though, what the heck do people think a ticket machine should look like? .

Something which has a sign which makes reference to "Tickets"

Like this maybe
http://sytravelmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/TVM-e1532510026577.jpg

or this
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/70/f2/14/70f21422e10f5107f2c48713fc1989e5.jpg

or this
https://www.intelligenttransport.com/wp-content/uploads/moBiel_TVM.jpg

Other people manage it. Why not Northern ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So numbers involved against overall numbers, just so we can get some perspective?

It isn't acceptable for one passenger to be PFed or prosecuted (or threatened with it) due to the utter inadequacy of a TOC's ticket purchase facilities or signage.

 

[Bantamzen]

Overall numbers of what exactly?

And why? So you can say it's a tiny percentage and therefore it doesn't matter? I've already said my views on that approach above.

I am just asking for the numbers of complaints you've had so we can see if the issue so widespread as you claim.

 

[mmh]

How about infrequent users?

One thing I've noticed about US operations is that there are generally very prominent "how do I ride the train?" and "points of etiquette" links on their website. So it's easy to find out in advance what to do.

Is that true of any UK TOC? Er, no.

Is there signage that tells you that at each station? Er, no.

Surely we should be making this kind of thing better. UK buses are terrible at it - even given that in most cases it's a simple "pay the driver having told him where you're going", that isn't the default in many or even most countries in the world. So why don't bus stops have signs saying that, and publicising the fares?

It really is something the UK is utterly awful at.

Agree completely with that. The TOC websites (auto complete put "websores" for that, very apt!) are appalling (not appealing!)

I'm a railway geek yet struggle to get the information I want out of them. Maps and timetables surely aren't the obscure things they make them. Lord knows how people half used to our railway cope, let alone infrequent passengers or tourists trying to plan.

Bus information is usually even worse, including in PTE areas where they should be making an attempt at making it accessible. Manchester and Glasgow, for example. I've lived in both, yet trying to check something as simple as "does the bus to X still go from there?" is almost impossible.

Meanwhile all the US public transport I've used, whether from private companies or public agencies, has been easy to research in advance. Often through websites that look a decade "out of date", but work. Which is more than I can say for Dublin. Apparently the city has a great bus service. Just so long as you magically know it.