Northern issue penalty fares after ticket office left unmanned

[sheff1]

Sorry, but go back and read my posts. I am not an apologist,

Apologist - "person who offers an argument in defence of something controversial".

Controversial - "giving rise or likely to give rise to public disagreement or heated discussion."

 

[Bantamzen]

Something which has a sign which makes reference to "Tickets"

Like this maybe
http://sytravelmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/TVM-e1532510026577.jpg

or this
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/70/f2/14/70f21422e10f5107f2c48713fc1989e5.jpg

or this
https://www.intelligenttransport.com/wp-content/uploads/moBiel_TVM.jpg

Other people manage it. Why not Northern ?

I don't know, have you asked Northern? But conversley I could point at a myriad of places, both here and abroad where paying is not obvious yet people manage to do so.

It isn't acceptable for one passenger to be PFed or prosecuted (or threatened with it) due to the utter inadequacy of a TOC's ticket purchase facilities or signage.

Sorry, but I do disagree. From what I have read, and as yet not one person has offered any evidence to oppose this, the passenger in question appears to have arrived at the station without enough time to purchase a ticket, be it at the office or TVM. They have then run to the media to cry foul when a PF was issued.

Agree completely with that. The TOC websites (auto complete put "websores" for that, very apt!) are appalling (not appealing!)

I'm a railway geek yet struggle to get the information I want out of them. Maps and timetables surely aren't the obscure things they make them. Lord knows how people half used to our railway cope, let alone infrequent passengers or tourists trying to plan.

Bus information is usually even worse, including in PTE areas where they should be making an attempt at making it accessible. Manchester and Glasgow, for example. I've lived in both, yet trying to check something as simple as "does the bus to X still go from there?" is almost impossible.

Meanwhile all the US public transport I've used, whether from private companies or public agencies, has been easy to research in advance. Often through websites that look a decade "out of date", but work. Which is more than I can say for Dublin. Apparently the city has a great bus service. Just so long as you magically know it.

I'm not so much a as railway geek as an IT one, and I have managed to navigate countless miles across this country without too much issue using the resources available to me. They can be better in other countries, this much is true. But they can also be a lot worse, yet people still manage to use them.

Apologist - "person who offers an argument in defence of something controversial".

Controversial - "giving rise or likely to give rise to public disagreement or heated discussion."

If all else fails, try the pedantic card eh? Well I'll take that card and see you with the fact that the Northern franchise does have a serious problem with revenue loss, and it is currently required to do something about it. These are facts, not excuses.

 

[Clip]

That's the only full picture of one of the new TVMs which came up in a Google search, other than the ones built in to the smart wall at Harrogate. I've not attempted to skew anything, I've attempted to do what many of the other posters on here are too lazy to bother doing. If you want to try and find better images on the web or to go to a Northern station and take some better photos feel free.

I did. See my earlier post on the matter which includes a picture i took myself and not one found on google.


I find it odd people may think theyre vending machines too as the vending machines ive seen in this country actually show the stock inside foir you to make your selection from - so im unsure why anyone would think you could get a packet of cheetos from them

Not exactly clear in high levels of light, is it?

In any case, it violates the sensible principle of not using VDU equipment to display static information (it will never be anything other than a ticket machine, so that needs to go on a very prominent physical sign).

It is skewed by it being dusk and the station lights but it was more to put paid to the quote that they dont say 'Tickets' on them which is patently untrue

 

[WelshBluebird]

But in the specific case of the topic of this thread, if a sign tells you to buy a ticket from the nearest ticket machine you go and use your initiative and find it.

So you should explore every last square metre of a station looking for a TVM that may not exist?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you should explore every last square metre of a station looking for a TVM that may not exist?

It would strike me that if there's a sign saying to buy a ticket from a TVM, it isn't beyond the wit of man and decent customer service to also include on that sign where said TVM is located including a little map if it's complicated.

 

[rs101]

It would strike me that if there's a sign saying to buy a ticket from a TVM, it isn't beyond the wit of man and decent customer service to also include on that sign where said TVM is located including a little map if it's complicated.

Especially when the location is non-obvious and the existence of a TVM contradicts the publicly available information about the station.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm glad someone else sees this in the same light. Whether any of us like it or not, Northern are compelled to tighten revenue loss as part of their franchis commitments. Some may take issue with it, some have even spent many months trying to pick legal holes in the application of FPs, but most passengers have just got on with it with no fuss.

The message is clear, buy before you board, and if the ticket machine doesn't jump out at you, look carefully. If you drove to a new car park and couldn't immediately see a ticket machine would you walk away? Or if you walked into a new store to buy something and couldn't instantly see a place to pay, would you just shrug your shoulders and walk out with the item? Of course nobody here would, yet it seems perfectly acceptable for people to not pay when required at FP stations, when the facility to do so exists.

Its been the long standing aim of my local RUG that "all fares are collected and accurate usage of the line recorded" - not so long ago the official view was that many lines outside the South East were financial basket cases and no one used them. Accurately showing how busy they actually were was always a priority to help counter blinkered bias. You'll find many RUGS across the country have taken this view as well. So Freddy the Fare Dodger, Penelope Pay when Challenged and Rear Cab Jacko who only did the doors were seen as acting against the interests of the line staying open. Whilst we've had just over 10 years of the mainstream political view of the railways and regional railways largely being different to the past that's not to say things wont change again especially after Brexit. Remember the Head of the Civil Service at DfT Philip Ruttnam wanted you Northern folk to keep your Pacers.......how the railway is perceived in Whitehall is very much part of the big picture that Penalty Fares are a part of. You've got your Pacers replaced partly on the back of this condition about introducing Penalty Fares in the franchise agreement. Government is not going to invest in rail if folk can waltz onto platforms around northern cities just before a train goes and jump off again somewhere else with a reasonable expectation that they can get away without paying on a regular/semi regular basis.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It would strike me that if there's a sign saying to buy a ticket from a TVM, it isn't beyond the wit of man and decent customer service to also include on that sign where said TVM is located including a little map if it's complicated.

Indeed. Or even at the very least make the sign say "the TVM located at this station" rather than "the nearest TVM" (which could mean anywhere!).

 

[baz962]

Read this thread from the start , tried not to post but really now . I as a railway employee get bugged by fare dodgers , big pet hate of mine . But then toc's should make it easy for the people that want to pay . Why on earth would you expect anyone to trudge to a different platform , indeed what if the person was elderly or disabled. Put an opportunity to pay at every opportunity , it ain't hard .

 

[Clip]

Especially when the location is non-obvious and the existence of a TVM contradicts the publicly available information about the station.

This is the fault of said website owners not updating their site so really you should point that bit of blame straight at the people who manage the NRE website

 

[pedr]

Sorry, but I do disagree. From what I have read, and as yet not one person has offered any evidence to oppose this, the passenger in question appears to have arrived at the station without enough time to purchase a ticket, be it at the office or TVM. They have then run to the media to cry foul when a PF was issued.

That seems to be a very limited interpretation of the incident in the OP, particular as there is no information about timings in the account.

It’s equally likely - more likely, I would say - that the passenger in question had the well-founded belief that there were no ticket machines at the station, only the ticket office. Since that appears to be a reasonable belief - the National Rail site apparently says it’s the case - then it’s reasonable for that passenger to interpret “nearest machine” as not referring to this station and to believe that the “before travelling” couldn’t be meant literally as otherwise it would mean no travel was permitted at all.

When the machine was in fact on a different and difficult to access platform, and not easy to recognise up close let alone from an opposite and off-set platform, there wasn’t much, if anything, to displace the belief that there wasn’t a machine. Whether it is lawful or not to issue a penalty fare in this situation is almost irrelevant, and does nothing to reduce the likelihood of future passengers making exactly the same error. Large printed signs pointing to machines, explanations of where machines are, etc seem far more likely to do that than enforcing penalty fares against those who’ve made this mistake.

 

[rs101]

This is the fault of said website owners not updating their site so really you should point that bit of blame straight at the people who manage the NRE website

Maybe they copied it from Northern's own website. That also says there isn't a ticket machine there - https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/stations/WAV#station-info .

 

[pemma]

Its been the long standing aim of my local RUG that "all fares are collected and accurate usage of the line recorded" - not so long ago the official view was that many lines outside the South East were financial basket cases and no one used them. Accurately showing how busy they actually were was always a priority to help counter blinkered bias. You'll find many RUGS across the country have taken this view as well. So Freddy the Fare Dodger, Penelope Pay when Challenged and Rear Cab Jacko who only did the doors were seen as acting against the interests of the line staying open. Whilst we've had just over 10 years of the mainstream political view of the railways and regional railways largely being different to the past that's not to say things wont change again especially after Brexit. Remember the Head of the Civil Service at DfT Philip Ruttnam wanted you Northern folk to keep your Pacers.......how the railway is perceived in Whitehall is very much part of the big picture that Penalty Fares are a part of. You've got your Pacers replaced partly on the back of this condition about introducing Penalty Fares in the franchise agreement. Government is not going to invest in rail if folk can waltz onto platforms around northern cities just before a train goes and jump off again somewhere else with a reasonable expectation that they can get away without paying on a regular/semi regular basis.

It's worth remembering he was of the opinion Pacers didn't need replacing if the lines they were being used on were getting increased levels of usage because that meant Pacers weren't putting passengers off. If Northern had kept their Pacers, it's likely Wales would have less from Westminster for their devolved franchise (as Westminster would not be of the opinion Wales & Borders needs existing trains being replaced) and that the 143s at GWR would have been cascaded to another TOC if GWR no longer required them or remained at GWR if they needed them.

 

[Skymonster]

Maybe they copied it from Northern's own website. That also says there isn't a ticket machine there - https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/stations/WAV#station-info .

Thing is, he presumably didn't check the Northern or National Rail websites because if he had done, almost undoubtedly that would have been part of his whinge to the Liverpool Echo - after all, he also managed to have a dig about the 'reliability' of Northern's service

Had he said: "The office was closed and there was a sign... I didn't see a ticket machine and believed there wasn't one because I'd checked the [Nortern / NRE] website... So I got on a train..." then I think his complaint would be quite plausible. But he didn't. He actually said [paraphrasing]: "The office was closed and there was a sign... And I was in a rush... So I got on a train...".

 

[rs101]

Thing is, he presumably didn't check the Northern or National Rail websites because if he had done, almost undoubtedly that would have been part of his whinge to the Liverpool Echo - after all, he also managed to have a dig about the 'reliability' of Northern's service

Had he said: "The office was closed and there was a sign... I didn't see a ticket machine and believed there wasn't one because I'd checked the [Nortern / NRE] website... So I got on a train..." then I think his complaint would be quite plausible. But he didn't. He actually said [paraphrasing]: "The office was closed and there was a sign... And I was in a rush... So I got on a train...".

I was just pointing out that Clip's attempt to shift the blame onto whoever's responsible for NRE's website failed as Northern themselves can't even correctly state whether machines exist or not.

The ticket machine would appear to be very new, given that both websites don't acknowledge it's existence. If this is the case, wouldn't it make sense to have signage in/around the ticket office actually telling customers about this? Or is that too much like common sense and good customer service for Northern to even consider it?

Your paraphrasing in bold completely mis-states what he is actualy quoted as saying in the article:-

"I do not travel regularly on this line and was not aware that a ticket machine had been installed on the opposite platform, on the Manchester line."

"The sign in the ticket booth window did not tell me that the nearest ticket booth was in that station and the ticket machine was also obscured by a train on the platform, so I neither saw it or knew it was there."

"Plus if I had gone over to that platform I would have missed my train."

which seems to support the other claim in the article - "He was also told that there was a ticket machine in the station he had travelled from, on the opposite platform to where he was." - so he only found out about the existence of the machine one he'd been issued a penalty ticket

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's worth remembering he was of the opinion Pacers didn't need replacing if the lines they were being used on were getting increased levels of usage because that meant Pacers weren't putting passengers off. If Northern had kept their Pacers, it's likely Wales would have less from Westminster for their devolved franchise (as Westminster would not be of the opinion Wales & Borders needs existing trains being replaced) and that the 143s at GWR would have been cascaded to another TOC if GWR no longer required them or remained at GWR if they needed them.

However that's not where we are and DfT want the £ from fare evasion to help pay.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I was just pointing out that Clip's attempt to shift the blame onto whoever's responsible for NRE's website failed as Northern themselves can't even correctly state whether machines exist or not.

The ticket machine would appear to be very new, given that both websites don't acknowledge it's existence. If this is the case, wouldn't it make sense to have signage in/around the ticket office actually telling customers about this? Or is that too much like common sense and good customer service for Northern to even consider it?

Your paraphrasing in bold completely mis-states what he is actualy quoted as saying in the article:-

"I do not travel regularly on this line and was not aware that a ticket machine had been installed on the opposite platform, on the Manchester line."

"The sign in the ticket booth window did not tell me that the nearest ticket booth was in that station and the ticket machine was also obscured by a train on the platform, so I neither saw it or knew it was there."

"Plus if I had gone over to that platform I would have missed my train."

which seems to support the other claim in the article - "He was also told that there was a ticket machine in the station he had travelled from, on the opposite platform to where he was." - so he only found out about the existence of the machine one he'd been issued a penalty ticket

I see it as quite eminently reasonable to think that, if you have not recently used a station and you did not know that ticket machines have recently been installed, the mention of ticket machines on the notice at the ticket office could well be a generic statement not applicable to that station. But again, that is not something the gentleman in the article has raised.

 

[bussnapperwm]

I asked three of my of my colleagues what they thought of Northerns new ticket machines, one thought it was a vending machine, one thought it was a screen with live train running information and one thought it was a door.

When I told them it was a ticket machine, they were shocked, with one saying that if they ever got fined because they saw one of them on the other platform, without any stickers or signage, they would be taking it all the way to court.

 

[davart]

I would agree that the ticket machines are fairly featureless.

I think a simple illuminated topper with a standard font clearly marking 'Purchase tickets here' for example wouldn't be difficult to fabricate.

Care should be taken when deciding where to site them. It's unreasonable to expect non-regular travellers to know the layout and location of the stations/machines.

As mentioned elsewhere, make it easy! Fare dodging isn't on, but neither is persecuting honest people.

The software needs polishing. It's too laggy and it isn't that intuitive. No good when there's a long queue...

 

[sheff1]

I go back to Conisbrough and similar places. If a station has had no ticket issuing facilities for 30 years or more, passengers are not going to go hunting for a machine every time they travel on the off chance one might have appeared, but that is exactly what the apologists say they should do.

On the other hand, if the arrival and location of the new TVM is advertised prominently at the entrance to the station and the TVM itself has 'buy tickets here' or similar signage (both very easy to arrange) it is difficult for a passenger to realistically claim they knew nothing about it. But, again, the apologists say there is no need for Northern to provide clear signage as people should be scouring the station every time they travel.

 

[yorkie]

I go back to Conisbrough and similar places. If a station has had no ticket issuing facilities for 30 years or more, passengers are not going to go hunting for a machine every time they travel on the off chance one might have appeared, but that is exactly what the apologists say they should do.

On the other hand, if the arrival and location of the new TVM is advertised prominently at the entrance to the station and the TVM itself has 'buy tickets here' or similar signage (both very easy to arrange) it is difficult for a passenger to realistically claim they knew nothing about it. But, again, the apologists say there is no need for Northern to provide clear signage as people should be scouring the station every time they travel.

Indeed. The apologists are just not bring pragmatic or sensible in suggesting a sweep of the station (including crossing footbridges twice) takes place at each journey, even when paying by a valid payment method that any hidden machine doesn't accept.

Would the apologists also suggest a westbound cash-paying passenger arriving at Low Moor from the foot/cycle path conducts a sweep of the car park as well as the other platform, I wonder?

 

[Clip]

Ahh yes, call us apologists when we are just actually stating facts about it all. That'll really put us in our place wont it!

 

[joke2711]

I do have sympathy for the gentleman. Wavertree Tech Park is in a cutting and the ticket office is at the top of the station. If the TVM is on the Manchester bound platform and you are heading to Liverpool then it isn't as straightforward as might be presumed. Logically if you entered the station and saw a sign that said "Buy ticket from the machine" .. you would guess that said machine would also be on the Liverpool bound platform. it would take many minutes to either climb the steps (or wait for lift) from the Liverpool bound platform to the top again, walk across the bridge, travel down and then repeat the process in reverse. I would guess about 10 minutes if reliant on lifts so to say that the person travelling should have allowed more time is not factually correct.

I am not sure of passenger flow but I can't believe that more passengers travel to and from Wavertree Tech Park from Manchester than from Liverpool, so to situate the TVM on the Manchester bound platform really does stink of Northern trying to make things as awkward as possible!

 

[rs101]

@joke2711 can you easily see the ticket machine from the Liverpool-bound platform or ticket office?

 

[joke2711]

@joke2711 can you easily see the ticket machine from the Liverpool-bound platform or ticket office?

I haven't looked to be honest .. but will check when I am passing through next. Even if you can .. it will be an effort and time consuming to get to it and back on your correct platform.

 

[talltim]

I'm glad someone else sees this in the same light. Whether any of us like it or not, Northern are compelled to tighten revenue loss as part of their franchis commitments. Some may take issue with it, some have even spent many months trying to pick legal holes in the application of FPs, but most passengers have just got on with it with no fuss.

The message is clear, buy before you board, and if the ticket machine doesn't jump out at you, look carefully. If you drove to a new car park and couldn't immediately see a ticket machine would you walk away? Or if you walked into a new store to buy something and couldn't instantly see a place to pay, would you just shrug your shoulders and walk out with the item? Of course nobody here would, yet it seems perfectly acceptable for people to not pay when required at FP stations, when the facility to do so exists.

The difference with those similes is that you can still be planning pay at another location when you get on the train, whereas once you have left a shop there is nowhere else to pay.

 

[pemma]

I did. See my earlier post on the matter which includes a picture i took myself and not one found on google.

Well perhaps it would have been more constructive to reply saying which post your picture was contained in (I hadn't seen it previously) instead of complaining about the picture I found.

Just this morning I saw a RPI having to show a woman where exactly the machine was, then when she was in front of it she couldn't see the blue text saying 'Touch screen to start' which is on a purple background. That also wasn't on a TVM in direct sunlight but was a passenger who wears glasses.

 

[35B]

Well perhaps it would have been more constructive to reply saying which post your picture was contained in (I hadn't seen it previously) instead of complaining about the picture I found.

Just this morning I saw a RPI having to show a woman where exactly the machine was, then when she was in front of it she couldn't see the blue text saying 'Touch screen to start' which is on a purple background. That also wasn't on a TVM in direct sunlight but was a passenger who wears glasses.

Which suggests there may also be issues with these machines under the Equalities Act.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which suggests there may also be issues with these machines under the Equalities Act.

TBH they are garbage; the S&B machines with a low screen angled upwards are much better and can be used both by able bodied people and people in wheelchairs. The big screen is a gimmick, not a benefit.

 

[pemma]

Which suggests there may also be issues with these machines under the Equalities Act.

The fact that it makes you touch screen to start isn't user friendly. The old machines at least had train running information on the standby screen, a standby screen stating nothing more than touch screen to start and then giving you the options of buy tickets for today or collect tickets after you've touched it is adding an unnecessary step to the process.