Northern issue penalty fares after ticket office left unmanned

[Bantamzen]

But anyway, this thread is not about the design of the UI but the positioning, and signage of the TVMs where Penalty Fares may apply. Perhaps a separate thread would be a better place to debate this matter!

 

[pemma]

But anyway, this thread is not about the design of the UI but the positioning, and signage of the TVMs where Penalty Fares may apply. Perhaps a separate thread would be a better place to debate this matter!

Some of the same principles apply. For instance, where is the eye drawn to, what colours should and shouldn't be used together etc.

 

[davart]

I think something else that would be useful would be to have ticket machines painted in the same colours as ticket stock i.e. two tone orange.

I don't think it would be that difficult to do and would give a consistency throughout the country regardless of TOC branding.

 

[pemma]

I think something else that would be useful would be to have ticket machines painted in the same colours as ticket stock i.e. two tone orange.

I don't think it would be that difficult to do and would give a consistency throughout the country regardless of TOC branding.

That was about the only good thing about the old Northern TVMs - no Northern branding, a National Rail logo and a sign indicating the machine sells tickets.

 

[CentralTrainer]

Quick question - when the Franchise Specifications are published when the bidding process is being done - is stuff like required format of signage and TVM specs written into it - or is that left up to the bidder when they win the contract?

Surely for uniformity (bar colour schemes) a standardised set of specs should be looked at?

 

[pemma]

Quick question - when the Franchise Specifications are published when the bidding process is being done - is stuff like required format of signage and TVM specs written into it - or is that left up to the bidder when they win the contract?

Surely for uniformity (bar colour schemes) a standardised set of specs should be looked at?

There's requirements regarding TVMs such as the minimum number which have to be installed across the network, a requirement to install them at certain stations and a requirement to have a 'virtual ticket office' feature on some of them. However, I don't think there's any specific requirements for colour of the TVM or whether there's a sign at the top saying it's a ticket machine.

 

[Signal Head]

Or as I have said a number of times on this thread now, at least instead of having a sign sign that says "use the nearest ticket machine", have one that says "the ticket machine located on platform x at this station". It really isn't that hard!

Quite. Following on from my post in the 'discussion' section about a single (and effectively hidden) ticket machine, I have now come across another example further up the line. Two platforms, two separate entrances, ticket machine not visible from the opposite platform, and no signage at that entrance indicating its presence, let alone location.

It's almost as if Northern are profiting from people boarding trains, in ignorance, without tickets...

 

[Bantamzen]

Quite. Following on from my post in the 'discussion' section about a single (and effectively hidden) ticket machine, I have now come across another example further up the line. Two platforms, two separate entrances, ticket machine not visible from the opposite platform, and no signage at that entrance indicating its presence, let alone location.

It's almost as if Northern are profiting from people boarding trains, in ignorance, without tickets...

Was the station in question on a Penalty Fare line?

 

[Signal Head]

Was the station in question on a Penalty Fare line?

Apparently not, however, there is a warning notice attached to the station/booking office building advising that tickets must be purchased before travel. As with my original example, this notice is only visible (and even then, not prominent) to users of one particular platform, there is nothing obvious on the other platform which is accessed quite independently.

In both cases, the ticket machine is obvious from one side, and it is impossible to access that platform without passing either the office or machine, if not both.

Personal opinion, if Northern (or any other TOC) wishes to aggressively pursue 'alleged' evaders, they should make it impossible to get to *any* platform without passing an obvious, clearly signed, 'opportunity to buy'. This would mean providing separate machines on or around each platform/access where these are separate, *unless* a single machine is easily accessible without having to exit the station premises.

Someone else has mentioned Manchester Metrolink as a good example of how to do this. As far as I am aware, all their stops have multiple ticket machines, at least one on each platform, and often more. Why can't Northern follow suit?

 

[island]

Cost.

 

[Haywain]

Cost.

And not simply the cost of the TVM. Providing power and secure data connections and making locations suitable can multiply the cost of a TVM many times. Metrolink of course, have the benefit of designing their tram stops from new and such costs are absorbed into much bigger projects making them easier to bear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And not simply the cost of the TVM. Providing power and secure data connections and making locations suitable can multiply the cost of a TVM many times. Metrolink of course, have the benefit of designing their tram stops from new and such costs are absorbed into much bigger projects making them easier to bear.

Signage, particularly posters, is a lot cheaper.

No excuse for doing nothing.

 

[Haywain]

Signage, particularly posters, is a lot cheaper.

No excuse for doing nothing.

I agree that this is the case where the platforms at a station are accessed separately and a TVM is not passed on the way.

 

[Signal Head]

Apparently not, however, there is a warning notice attached to the station/booking office building advising that tickets must be purchased before travel. As with my original example, this notice is only visible (and even then at all prominent) to users of one particular platform, there is nothing obvious on the other platform which is accessed quite independently.

In both cases, the ticket machine is obvious from one side, and it is impossible to access that platform without passing either the office or machine, if not both.

Personal opinion, if Northern (or any other TOC) wishes to aggressively pursue 'alleged' evaders, they should make it impossible to get to *any* platform without passing an obvious, clearly signed, 'opportunity to buy'. This would mean providing separate machines on or around each platform/access where these are separate, *unless* a single machine is easily accessible without having to exit the station premises.

Someone else has mentioned Manchester Metrolink as a good example of how to do this. As far as I am aware, all their stops have multiple ticket machines, at least one on each platform, and often more. Why can't Northern follow suit?

Cost.

Fine, but if Northern do not wish, or cannot afford to equip their stations fully, then they should be more lenient on alleged evasion, especially when the passenger has boarded from a non-equipped platform.

They should not be able to have it both ways, skimp on the provision of revenue gathering kit, then go after the passengers who are unaware of, or unable to access what has been provided.

 

[185]

Metrolink of course, have the benefit of designing their tram stops from new and such costs are absorbed into much bigger projects making them easier to bear.

That said, Metrolink accept money. Serious difference in cost when purchasing TVMs. Also with the onset of mobile based tech, the installation costs are now limited to a power supply - data via the ground is starting to disappear.

 

[Bantamzen]

Apparently not, however, there is a warning notice attached to the station/booking office building advising that tickets must be purchased before travel. As with my original example, this notice is only visible (and even then, not prominent) to users of one particular platform, there is nothing obvious on the other platform which is accessed quite independently.

In both cases, the ticket machine is obvious from one side, and it is impossible to access that platform without passing either the office or machine, if not both.

Personal opinion, if Northern (or any other TOC) wishes to aggressively pursue 'alleged' evaders, they should make it impossible to get to *any* platform without passing an obvious, clearly signed, 'opportunity to buy'. This would mean providing separate machines on or around each platform/access where these are separate, *unless* a single machine is easily accessible without having to exit the station premises.

Someone else has mentioned Manchester Metrolink as a good example of how to do this. As far as I am aware, all their stops have multiple ticket machines, at least one on each platform, and often more. Why can't Northern follow suit?

Where Penalty Fares exist, I do now agree that good signage is needed given that some people seem to struggle finding them, and it does seem to be the case where I am at least (and this on a single platform station with two entrances) . In terms of TVM provision, I have seen cases, Guiseley for one, where additional machines have been installed at a later date.

And not simply the cost of the TVM. Providing power and secure data connections and making locations suitable can multiply the cost of a TVM many times. Metrolink of course, have the benefit of designing their tram stops from new and such costs are absorbed into much bigger projects making them easier to bear.

As mentioned above, at some stations additional TVMs have been fitted at later dates. It could just be that they have fitted the minimum for the start, with extra ones installed as demand is identified.

Signage, particularly posters, is a lot cheaper.

No excuse for doing nothing.

Do we know for an absolute certainty that this is the case? For example at Wavertree, are there definitely no signs indicating the presence of a TVM?

That said, Metrolink accept money. Serious difference in cost when purchasing TVMs. Also with the onset of mobile based tech, the installation costs are now limited to a power supply - data via the ground is starting to disappear.

Are the Northern ones mobile or hard wired, does anyone know?

 

[Harpers Tate]

....if Northern do not wish, or cannot afford to equip their stations fully, then they should be more lenient on alleged evasion, especially when the passenger has boarded from a non-equipped platform. They should not be able to have it both ways, skimp on the provision of revenue gathering kit, then go after the passengers who are unaware of, or unable to access what has been provided.

Exactly. I have no problem with them wanting their revenue before travel, but it is incumbent upon them to make more than adequate provision, including a degree of contingency, to collect it - OR to accept that when they do not do so either by choice or random failure of machine or personnel, then penalties (in the broadest sense - from higher fares up to court action) are not given.

 

[Signal Head]

... data via the ground is starting to disappear.

Presumably an earth fault.

 

[Signal Head]

Exactly. I have no problem with them wanting their revenue before travel, but it is incumbent upon them to make more than adequate provision, including a degree of contingency, to collect it - OR to accept that when they do not do so either by choice or random failure of machine or personnel, then penalties (in the broadest sense - from higher fares up to court action) are not given.

Judging by some of the threads in here there does now seem to be a presumption of guilt by the TOCs, or more likely, their third party enforcement agents, once the "ticket machine?" box has been ticked, without taking any account of the actual facilities available.

I believe that creates a hostile environment, where innocent people get swept up with the real evaders and are potentially dissuaded from using the railway again, where they have a choice.

 

[185]

One consideration probably mentioned re the card only TVMs is the (not that well reported) spate of break-ins at Metrolink's TVMs. Most were done on a midweek night after the machine is filled with notes from season ticket purchases on a Monday. There is no maximum cash transaction thus a £1000 ticket could theoretically be purchased with cash. I'd estimate there have been 90 or more break-ins since 2014.

Presumably an earth fault.

...yep, I'll give you that, it was 4am lol

 

[Bletchleyite]

One consideration probably mentioned re the card only TVMs is the (not that well reported) spate of break-ins at Metrolink's TVMs. Most were done on a midweek night after the machine is filled with notes from season ticket purchases on a Monday. There is no maximum cash transaction thus a £1000 ticket could theoretically be purchased with cash. I'd estimate there have been 90 or more break-ins since 2014.

TBH I think there will come a point very soon where a change in the rules allowing TOCs to cease accepting cash other than at staffed ticket offices would be viable. Some kind of pre-paid card would be a reasonable replacement for those who cannot for whatever reason hold a traditional debit card; this could be topped up at main station staffed ticket offices and PayPoint/PayZone shops of which there are loads (practically every newsagent these days). It doesn't seem to have been the kind of disaster on London Buses that people seemed to think it would be.

EDIT: New thread to discuss if it would be viable to cease or reduce cash acceptance:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-the-railway-cease-accepting-cash.170450/

 

[Bantamzen]

Judging by some of the threads in here there does now seem to be a presumption of guilt by the TOCs, or more likely, their third party enforcement agents, once the "ticket machine?" box has been ticked, without taking any account of the actual facilities available.

I believe that creates a hostile environment, where innocent people get swept up with the real evaders and are potentially dissuaded from using the railway again, where they have a choice.

Equally this forum sees many examples of people who have tried to avoid paying the correct fares and been caught out. So TOCs getting more aggressive in revenue protection is partly down to this, partly due to franchise commitments and partly down to profit protection. Such is the nature of our privatised railway system I'm afraid.

What is needed are reasonable avenues to contest incorrect penalties, so that anyone with a genuine reason for not having the correct ticket or pass can make representation at no additional expense to them (though a little if their time being spent is inevitable). Do stations need better signage and TVM availability, yes it seems some may. And given the franchise requirements set by DfT on some TOCs are tightening, there needs to be a national awareness campaign run centrally to inform passengers that increasingly it is becoming a requirement to have a valid ticket before you board. But no matter how much extra is applied, people will still try it on whilst others will still not be aware. And so someone, somewhere will still have to decide who is innocent and who is not. Anyone who has ever had to make such a judgement in any walk of life on a regular basis will tell you this is not as black and white as some would believe.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Equally this forum sees many examples of people who have tried to avoid paying the correct fares and been caught out.

In fact most of what gets posted falls in this category - but it doesn't receive the attention and the posts quickly drop down the rankings so to speak.

 

[Haywain]

Also with the onset of mobile based tech, the installation costs are now limited to a power supply - data via the ground is starting to disappear.

Not easily the case for TVMs which require secure and encrypted data connections for transmitting card information. For ToD only machines the requirements are not so onerous.

 

[Signal Head]

Equally this forum sees many examples of people who have tried to avoid paying the correct fares and been caught out. So TOCs getting more aggressive in revenue protection is partly down to this, partly due to franchise commitments and partly down to profit protection. Such is the nature of our privatised railway system I'm afraid.

What is needed are reasonable avenues to contest incorrect penalties, so that anyone with a genuine reason for not having the correct ticket or pass can make representation at no additional expense to them (though a little if their time being spent is inevitable). Do stations need better signage and TVM availability, yes it seems some may. And given the franchise requirements set by DfT on some TOCs are tightening, there needs to be a national awareness campaign run centrally to inform passengers that increasingly it is becoming a requirement to have a valid ticket before you board. But no matter how much extra is applied, people will still try it on whilst others will still not be aware. And so someone, somewhere will still have to decide who is innocent and who is not. Anyone who has ever had to make such a judgement in any walk of life on a regular basis will tell you this is not as black and white as some would believe.

I can't argue with much, if any of that, and I'm all for going after those who are deliberately evading all or part of their fare, lying about their origin station etc., but there should be an acknowledgement that where facilities are not comprehensive, 'innocent' ticketless boarding (not necessarily travel) will occur, and in these cases there should be benefit of the doubt, (which I'm sure I have seen mentioned in here as TOC policy) with an opportunity to purchase later in the journey, especially when the party has approached staff and offered payment of their own volition.

I realise this risks being seen as 'pay when challenged', what 'the railway' ought to be doing is improving the opportunities to 'challenge' early in the journey, ie clear and obvious purchasing facilities which it is impossible to claim to have been unaware of.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not easily the case for TVMs which require secure and encrypted data connections for transmitting card information

Yes, it is easily the case. It is perfectly acceptable to transmit encrypted card data over the public Internet via 4G; it's no worse than what you're doing if you make a purchase online. Quite a lot of portable PDQ terminals do it these days, including those used on trains. And even if there

 

[Bantamzen]

I can't argue with much, if any of that, and I'm all for going after those who are deliberately evading all or part of their fare, lying about their origin station etc., but there should be an acknowledgement that where facilities are not comprehensive, 'innocent' ticketless boarding (not necessarily travel) will occur, and in these cases there should be benefit of the doubt, (which I'm sure I have seen mentioned in here as TOC policy) with an opportunity to purchase later in the journey, especially when the party has approached staff and offered payment of their own volition.

I realise this risks being seen as 'pay when challenged', what 'the railway' ought to be doing is improving the opportunities to 'challenge' early in the journey, ie clear and obvious purchasing facilities which it is impossible to claim to have been unaware of.

I know where you are coming from when you mention giving the benefit of the doubt, but as you say this risks simply defaulting back to the 'pay when challenged' situation which is what has been the case for many years. To be fair train crews at least do tend to apply this policy, where a passenger tells a guard that the TVM was down for example they have no problem in selling them the required ticket. And just this morning during a ticket check the guard accepted seeing a copy of a TOD collection email when the passenger told them that the selected TOD was down (we were Leeds bound where TVMs are located on the platform side of the barriers).

The problem comes when in cases like this a passenger says they couldn't find any ticketing facilities, or did not have time to use them due to their locations. Its not so easy to apply benefit of doubt, as these will be exactly the kind of excuses that fare dodgers will have been using for years (along with the classic "I got on at <insert last station before revenue check> mate"). A guard or RPO will have to use their judgement to decide if the passenger is being truthful or just trying it on. I for one would certainly not envy that job day in day out, I hear all sorts of rubbish on at least a weekly basis just being a passenger so goodness knows how many times railway staff hear it.

But I do agree that more will need to be done to make it absolutely clear to all passengers & potential passengers that they must make every effort to buy before boarding, and I do think that this is best done nationally by DfT as they are the ones pushing to reduce revenue loss. Personally I'd take it much further, and take ticketing away from TOCs altogether by changing franchises to contracts where TOCs bid for a collection of routes, the DfT then contracts them to run the required services whilst National Rail on their behalf collects the ticket sales revenue to pay for the contracts. But that's a pipe dream of mine that I don't expect to happen!

 

[cuccir]

Equally this forum sees many examples of people who have tried to avoid paying the correct fares and been caught out. So TOCs getting more aggressive in revenue protection is partly down to this,

We might also add that people who have regularly and knowingly dodged their fare are much less likely to come here seeking help than those who have gotten confused and face a scenario that they weren't expecting. Generally, this forum sees (1) those who chanced it and didn't quite think through the severity of what they were doing (2) people who are being either incorrectly accused, or have unwittingly missed opportunities to pay.

In using Northern-owned stations with which I'm not familiar, more than once my experience has been that I've had to go wandering around and across platforms, into waiting areas, looking at machines which resemble pay and display parking units or touch-screens, in order to determine if there is a working TVM or not. Experiences I can recollect include a station with a single small TVM in a shelter on one platform only (Seaham); a station with an apparently non-functioning touch-screen TVM that could not be used anyway due to the reflections of the sun (Saltburn); a station with a ticket office that was not signed or even particularly visible from the entrance I used (Shipley); and a station without ticket buying facilities (Corbridge). I don't think it's reasonable to expect passengers to go wandering round like that in search of whether or not tickets are available. The lack of consistency in the style of machine does not help things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In using Northern-owned stations with which I'm not familiar, more than once my experience has been that I've had to go wandering around and across platforms, into waiting areas, looking at machines which resemble pay and display parking units or touch-screens, in order to determine if there is a working TVM or not. Experiences I can recollect include a station with a single small TVM in a shelter on one platform only (Seaham); a station with an apparently non-functioning touch-screen TVM that could not be used anyway due to the reflections of the sun (Saltburn); a station with a ticket office that was not signed or even particularly visible from the entrance I used (Shipley); and a station without ticket buying facilities (Corbridge). I don't think it's reasonable to expect passengers to go wandering round like that in search of whether or not tickets are available. The lack of consistency in the style of machine does not help things.

I agree. And yet this situation would be easy to make workable using cheap signage - posters in frames would be enough - ensuring that at every station you cannot enter without seeing a clear sign stating (a) what the ticketing situation is (booking office vs. TVM vs. online), and (b) where such facilities are located and when they are open.

A consistent design of poster nationally would make this even better, though Northern could start now by having a consistent design of poster used throughout their network. It could be made to fit in a standard bus stop poster holder, allowing it to be attached to any suitable pole by the entrance to the station, duplicated with posters in the existing poster holders on the platforms.

 

[Bantamzen]

I agree. And yet this situation would be easy to make workable using cheap signage - posters in frames would be enough - ensuring that at every station you cannot enter without seeing a clear sign stating (a) what the ticketing situation is (booking office vs. TVM vs. online), and (b) where such facilities are located and when they are open.

A consistent design of poster nationally would make this even better, though Northern could start now by having a consistent design of poster used throughout their network. It could be made to fit in a standard bus stop poster holder, allowing it to be attached to any suitable pole by the entrance to the station, duplicated with posters in the existing poster holders on the platforms.

And that is sensible enough, although people would still ignore them & others would still argue that they weren't big enough, plentiful enough, the right colour....