• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Considerations around further electrification in the North

Status
Not open for further replies.

ben2012

Member
Joined
1 Oct 2012
Messages
40
Location
Pontefract, West Yorkshire
Hi i have read that Northern are close to finialising a new train order with CAF but cant find any details on it.
does anyone know if there has been any details released , and what they are planning on ordering
also if they knew they needed more why did they not let Arriva order more
Thanks
B
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Jorge Da Silva

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2018
Messages
2,591
Location
Cleethorpes, North East Lincolnshire
Hi i have read that Northern are close to finialising a new train order with CAF but cant find any details on it.
does anyone know if there has been any details released , and what they are planning on ordering
also if they knew they needed more why did they not let Arriva order more
Thanks
B

I believe Arriva did not rule it out saying they may have ordered more in the future, as i believe they had the option to. Where did you hear they were close to ordering more trains?

I'm going to guess it will be more class 195's and potentially class 331's. It may be to increase train lengthens to allow more capacity on the network.
 

NoMorePacers

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2016
Messages
1,391
Location
Humberside
You've interpreted that completely incorrectly.

What it is actually saying is that the delivery of stock from the order placed by Arriva at the start of their franchise in 2016 is nearly finished. Nothing about more new trains or anything like that.
 

TRAX

Established Member
Joined
2 Dec 2015
Messages
1,648
Location
France
You've interpreted that completely incorrectly.

What it is actually saying is that the delivery of stock from the order placed by Arriva at the start of their franchise in 2016 is nearly finished. Nothing about more new trains or anything like that.

This is how I interpret it too.
 

ben2012

Member
Joined
1 Oct 2012
Messages
40
Location
Pontefract, West Yorkshire
i am really sorry about that but i did read it in rail issue was no 900
i attached the article about it
 

Attachments

  • nt1.png
    nt1.png
    1.2 MB · Views: 147
  • nt2.png
    nt2.png
    931.2 KB · Views: 141

py_megapixel

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2018
Messages
6,643
Location
Northern England
It was in fact a franchise commitment to introduce around 20 more Turbostars, or other units of equivalent quality

Personally I suspect that now OLR have taken over this requirement will just be ignored, but I could easily be proven wrong.
 

Wtloild

Member
Joined
8 Aug 2018
Messages
189
Do CAF do a bi-mode version of the City?
That could be an order worth placing.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
Windermere battery trial:



4 extra vehicles with batteries to extend 3car unis to 4car.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,162
Windermere battery trial:



4 extra vehicles with batteries to extend 3car unis to 4car.
And reported in Modern Railways subsequently that Northern’s new management aren’t keen on battery 331s.
 

py_megapixel

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2018
Messages
6,643
Location
Northern England
And reported in Modern Railways subsequently that Northern’s new management aren’t keen on battery 331s.
So Northern will run diesel multiple units - which they are very short of - under the wires for hundreds of miles a day, in the midst of a climate emergency, just because the management happen to dislike the alternative.

Surely there must be a better reason than that, even if it's not been given publicly?
 

Brissle Girl

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
2,480
So Northern will run diesel multiple units - which they are very short of - under the wires for hundreds of miles a day, in the midst of a climate emergency, just because the management happen to dislike the alternative.

Surely there must be a better reason than that, even if it's not been given publicly?
“Aren’t keen” will be shorthand for that they have got reasons why they don’t think it’s a good idea, which no doubt they will have already discussed with DfT. You don’t really think that a business decision would or wouldn’t be made on a purely emotive decision surely?

Though if it’s what the DfT wants for its own agenda, then it may well overrule the management given the control it has.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,162
So Northern will run diesel multiple units - which they are very short of - under the wires for hundreds of miles a day, in the midst of a climate emergency, just because the management happen to dislike the alternative.

Surely there must be a better reason than that, even if it's not been given publicly?
Getting the wires up is the solution that should be adopted.
 

py_megapixel

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2018
Messages
6,643
Location
Northern England
“Aren’t keen” will be shorthand for that they have got reasons why they don’t think it’s a good idea, which no doubt they will have already discussed with DfT. You don’t really think that a business decision would or wouldn’t be made on a purely emotive decision surely?
Not usually, but I wouldn't put it past Northern...


In all seriousness though, if it's a problem that could easily be overcome by literally ordering four carriages, it seems a little odd. But I'm no expert in these things and I would imagine there is a good reason behind it that people on this forum simply haven't thought of as yet.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
“Aren’t keen” will be shorthand for that they have got reasons why they don’t think it’s a good idea, which no doubt they will have already discussed with DfT. You don’t really think that a business decision would or wouldn’t be made on a purely emotive decision surely?

Though if it’s what the DfT wants for its own agenda, then it may well overrule the management given the control it has.
The issue is that they don't have enough battery capacity and the recharging time is comparatively long so a single unit can't do 2 consecutive trips on the branch on battery but has to go down the mainline for a while to recharge (getting it out of the way) while another unit does the next round trip on the branch. Hence impractical for the real timetable, a properly spec'd battery EMU and wires some of the way up the branch would be better.
Not difficult to understand why OLR aren't keen on what Northern ordered.
 
Last edited:

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
4,420
The issue is that they don't have enough battery capacity and the recharging time is comparatively long so a single unit can't do 2 consecutive trips on the branch on battery but has to go down the mainline for a while to recharge (getting it out of the way) while another unit does the next round trip on the branch. Hence impractical for the real timetable, a properly spec'd battery EMU and wires some of the way up the branch would be better.
Not difficult to understand why OLR aren't keen on what Northern ordered.
It also creates a small subfleet of battery EMUs which is much less preferable than just electrifying it, its only 15 miles long meanwhile NR have hired Atkins (engineering and design company) to bring down the cost of electrification.

Arriva had planned for 16 more 2 car 170 like DMUs but this never happened.

I doubt we will see many new 195s, the better way is to electrify most routes and use 195s and 170s were it would cost too much till the end of the train's life.
 
Last edited:

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,396
... meanwhile NR have hired Atkins (engineering and design company) to bring down the cost of electrification.

Out of interest, do you have any news/magazine article links about this please.
 

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
4,420
Out of interest, do you have any news/magazine article links about this please.
Here, it may ask for you to sign up to a free account, if you don't want to just clear your cookies for the website (click the padlock at the URL bar if you are on Chrome to bring up the cookies menu :) )
 

37424

Member
Joined
10 Apr 2020
Messages
1,064
Location
Leeds
Isn't there an option to get more carriages for the 195s and 331s incase of increase in passenger numbers?
The OLR report before covid suggested they were a significant number of units short and were keen to get some more preferably new but of course the virus could alter things.
 

jonesy3001

Established Member
Joined
13 Jul 2009
Messages
3,248
Location
Otley, West Yorkshire
The OLR report before covid suggested they were a significant number of units short and were keen to get some more preferably new but of course the virus could alter things.
Would be great if they got the 196s as well as they have a corridor connection and would see of some the older Dmus.
I've seen double decker buses get refurbished and have corrosion repairs and get scrapped a couple of years after.
 

Brissle Girl

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
2,480
Would be great if they got the 196s as well as they have a corridor connection and would see of some the older Dmus.
I've seen double decker buses get refurbished and have corrosion repairs and get scrapped a couple of years after.
Surely if you want to get more units because you are short you don’t replace the existing stock. And no doubt they will have contracts in place to retain the older units into the future else they would have already included more units in the original order.
 

jonesy3001

Established Member
Joined
13 Jul 2009
Messages
3,248
Location
Otley, West Yorkshire
Surely if you want to get more units because you are short you don’t replace the existing stock. And no doubt they will have contracts in place to retain the older units into the future else they would have already included more units in the original order.
And they are getting the 323s from WMT in a couple of years to replace the remaining 319s.
And they'll 3 electric fleets running around the northern empire, 323s,331s and the 333s.
Don't know if there's any more DMUs being cascaded in.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
Surely if you want to get more units because you are short you don’t replace the existing stock. And no doubt they will have contracts in place to retain the older units into the future else they would have already included more units in the original order.
If any further CAF vehicles were ordered, I'd think that extra middle cars would be the priority. Though if any additional driving cars were needed, they ought to be gangwayed just as the originals should have been.
And they are getting the 323s from WMT in a couple of years to replace the remaining 319s.
And they'll 3 electric fleets running around the northern empire, 323s,331s and the 333s.
Don't know if there's any more DMUs being cascaded in.
There's the supposed "170 equivalent" units that were in the original franchise, but that agreement is pretty much dead. There's also a distinct lack of 170s coming available as well as any indication of what would qualify as a "170 equivalent". Would 175s meet this or not? The 156s and 158s from EMR probably wouldn't, but they're still perfectly adequate for much of Northern's network.
 

Jamesrob637

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2016
Messages
5,207
If any further CAF vehicles were ordered, I'd think that extra middle cars would be the priority. Though if any additional driving cars were needed, they ought to be gangwayed just as the originals should have been.

There's the supposed "170 equivalent" units that were in the original franchise, but that agreement is pretty much dead. There's also a distinct lack of 170s coming available as well as any indication of what would qualify as a "170 equivalent". Would 175s meet this or not? The 156s and 158s from EMR probably wouldn't, but they're still perfectly adequate for much of Northern's network.

Only a 158 matches a 170 - and that's if the air-conditioning is working!
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
Only a 158 matches a 170 - and that's if the air-conditioning is working!
That was my point though: the agreement stated something like 18 2-car sets of class 170 or equivalent diesel units, but didn't specify what parameters were to be used to define what would qualify as a "170-equivalent". If door positions are an issue, 175s are no good. If 100mph capability is required, 158s are no good. If track access charges/fuel costs should be comparable then 185s are no good. If all those things matter, the only option is actual 170s, but there aren't any being made available anyway.

The irony being that Northern will need extra capacity, but perfectly adequate units being freed up elsewhere (the EMR Sprinters) don't meet the arbitrary specification.
 

MML

Member
Joined
25 Oct 2015
Messages
587
York - Leeds hourly service is normally one 2-car unit and 2 x 2-car operating as a 4-car.
I suspect what they want is a standard service with a 3-car unit. In which case, 2 new centre cars would release one of the 2-car units for other services.
This situation is probably repeated elsewhere.
And if off lease 153 units were attached to class 156, that would increase capacity by 50%. No need for universal toilet if they are always joined to a 156.
 

David Goddard

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
1,502
Location
Reading
York - Leeds hourly service is normally one 2-car unit and 2 x 2-car operating as a 4-car.
I suspect what they want is a standard service with a 3-car unit. In which case, 2 new centre cars would release one of the 2-car units for other services.
Let's use 150001/2 then!
 

Halish Railway

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
1,692
Location
West Yorkshire / Birmingham
Given the current excess of EMUs (Northern aren’t supposed to get all of the 323s), I’ll just assume that they’re only getting more 195s, with the possible exception of battery trailers.

Currently, there are a couple of inter-regional routes that are ideal candidates for 195s, those being Scarborough to Sheffield, Middlesbrough to Carlisle via Stillington (when it’s introduced) and Hull to York.

Also, I’d get rid of the idiotic arrangement in which two-car trains operate the Hallam line express services, though I don’t think that’s possible with the lack of space on platform 17, though they might move these trains on to another platform to accommodate the increase in frequency of the Hallam line stopping trains.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top