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Northern: North West Sunday Crew Shortages

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scrapy

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Many short term cancellations are probably due to staff being unable to get into work.
Few train crew shifts allow staff to use the train to get to and from work as they start or finish before/after services run, so train crew will have an alternative means of getting to work. I certainly don't think many drivers or guards rely on the train on a Sunday.
 

Llama

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Not quite, Sundays are not 'rest days'. There is a restday working agreement in place for working rest days (eg extra days on top of the working week that aren't Sunday) for ex-FNW drivers.

But there has been a productivity package voted in today by drivers which will see more commitment to working Sundays. The relevant terms within the agreement commence on 26th January.
 

Jamesrob637

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Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme have not fared too badly these last couple of Sundays thanks to engineering works near Cheadle. Hourly each way from around 9am until late-evening, plus the rail replacement buses. This may be because the duration of the Stockport to Manchester shuttle is barely 15 minutes each way whereas the Stoke and Crewe services are closer to an hour each way (Stoke stoppers still being on a limited Sunday frequency, but that's for another thread!)
 

Bovverboy

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There don't appear to be any planned cancellations for today (Sun), so I presume that is a consequence of the latest 'productivity package' coming into effect.
Won't this be to the detriment of Monday to Saturday services, as last time? There aren't suddenly going to be noticeably more drivers, are there?
 

Geeves

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Presumably the roster clerks at Northern have the wherewithal to roster people who are earlies or lates on Monday to the corresponding shift on the Sunday OT.
 

Bovverboy

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That isn't what I meant. If a driver works overtime on a Sunday, he's less likely, or probably even able, to work overtime at other times. Drivers aren't suddenly going to work twice the amount of overtime they have been in the habit of doing, and it is this which I think was the thing which, when there was previously a similar agreement, resulted in more journeys being missed during the week.
 

Bovverboy

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I wonder, with the DMU in mind, how much finance are Northern saving on unused fuel on these cancelled journeys.

The fewer trains Northern runs the more profit it makes, which is why there isn't any great incentive to run a full service.
 

superkev

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There don't appear to be any planned cancellations for today (Sun), so I presume that is a consequence of the latest 'productivity package' coming into effect.
Won't this be to the detriment of Monday to Saturday services, as last time? There aren't suddenly going to be noticeably more drivers, are there?
As part of the agreement are West side Sundays counted as rest days paid at rest day working rates?
This would be unlike east side where I believe Sundays are part of the working week.
K
 
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Llama

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As part of the agreement are West side Sundays counted as rest days paid at rest day working rates?
This would be unlike West side where I believe Sundays are part of the working week.
K
Assume you meant east side in your second sentence. No, Sundays on the west side are still outside the working week and not included in rest-day working equalisation totals.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Assume you meant east side in your second sentence. No, Sundays on the west side are still outside the working week and not included in rest-day working equalisation totals.

If the west side staff still regard Sundays as outside of the working week, logic would seem to say that no Sunday services should be expected to be operated in that area.
 

Llama

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Sundays are still outside the working week, there's no question about that.

What have changed are the conditions under which a driver is required to attend work if no cover for their shift is available.
 

superkev

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Assume you meant east side in your second sentence. No, Sundays on the west side are still outside the working week and not included in rest-day working equalisation totals.
Yes meant east side where Sundays fir drivers are the same as any other day. Original amended. Not sure thats true for guards.
K
 

Dr Hoo

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The fewer trains Northern runs the more profit it makes, which is why there isn't any great incentive to run a full service.
Bearing in mind that the Northern franchise has apparently been making 'unsustainable' losses despite 'cancelling' (or 'un-scheduling' in advance) large numbers of services over a long period (not only on Sundays) can you flesh out the maths, economics and contractual rights/obligations behind your statement please?
 

Bovverboy

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Bearing in mind that the Northern franchise has apparently been making 'unsustainable' losses despite 'cancelling' (or 'un-scheduling' in advance) large numbers of services over a long period (not only on Sundays) can you flesh out the maths, economics and contractual rights/obligations behind your statement please?

If Northern has been making 'unsustainable' losses over a long period, why has it continued to operate the franchise? Why, indeed, is it still solvent?
I'll amend my own post to read:

'The fewer trains Northern runs the healthier its balance sheet, which is why there isn't any great incentive to run a full service'.
 

Bovverboy

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Sundays are still outside the working week, there's no question about that.

What have changed are the conditions under which a driver is required to attend work if no cover for their shift is available.

You've lost me there a bit, I'm afraid. If Sundays are still outside the working week, and therefore being covered solely by overtime, which is not compulsory, how can there be, relating to drivers, such a thing as 'their' shift?
 

Staffordian

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'The fewer trains Northern runs the healthier its balance sheet, which is why there isn't any great incentive to run a full service'.
I can see this might be true, but surely it depends on whether the marginal saving from not running a train is greater or less than the associated revenue loss. Given the number of posts on here along the lines of “I’m going back to the car”, the long-term revenue loss from regularly cancelling trains could well be greater than the cost saving, in which case it would not be in Northern’s financial interest to do so.
 

Bovverboy

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I can see this might be true, but surely it depends on whether the marginal saving from not running a train is greater or less than the associated revenue loss. Given the number of posts on here along the lines of “I’m going back to the car”, the long-term revenue loss from regularly cancelling trains could well be greater than the cost saving, in which case it would not be in Northern’s financial interest to do so.

The above might be the case if Northern had much of a future as operator of the Northern franchise, but it doesn't seem to have. This is one of the negative aspects of the franchising system, i.e. there's no point in investing in the future if some other operator is going to come along and reap the benefits.
 

MDB1images

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You've lost me there a bit, I'm afraid. If Sundays are still outside the working week, and therefore being covered solely by overtime, which is not compulsory, how can there be, relating to drivers, such a thing as 'their' shift?

Can't comment on Northern but
It is compulsory in some TOCs in that you can put yourself unavailable to work your booked Sunday but if it can't be covered by another crew member then you have to come in for it and cover it yourself.

To further muddy the waters you can't put dailyleave in for these days as it's not part of the working week so can't qualify for leave applications!
 

dk1

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Can't comment on Northern but
It is compulsory in some TOCs in that you can put yourself unavailable to work your booked Sunday but if it can't be covered by another crew member then you have to come in for it and cover it yourself.

To further muddy the waters you can't put dailyleave in for these days as it's not part of the working week so can't qualify for leave applications!
We can refuse our starred Sundays but have to work our booked Sundays unless it is either side of Annual Leave then we are guaranteed to have it off regardless of whether the turn can be covered or not. Even if we are declined our duty managers are fabulous at getting our shifts covered at any cost. Bless em :wub:
 
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Llama

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You've lost me there a bit, I'm afraid. If Sundays are still outside the working week, and therefore being covered solely by overtime, which is not compulsory, how can there be, relating to drivers, such a thing as 'their' shift?
Because they are pre-rostered. And if there is no cover, as in you can't find anyone to work it for you if you have said you don't want to work it, you are forced to come in for overtime you don't want.

And yes, as @MDB1images says, you can't take annual leave. So you are left with no possible way of taking that Sunday off legitimately, you are forced to come in to work.
 
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Killingworth

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Is the Hope Valley line the most targeted line on the west side on Sundays?

Certainly wasn't the case until late summer last year. Hardly any cancellations at all until then so the converse might have been said.
Targeted is probably the wrong word, unless all other lines are getting full services. However a change in priorities may have occurred .
 
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