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Northern: North West Sunday Crew Shortages

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atraindriver

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In my 35yrs on the railway there has never been adequate staffing no matter what they do with drivers.
Agreed. Same with guards, too, and all the TOCs I've worked for since privatisation have struggled with station staffing as well.

And at my current depot the roster (created by management, not by the union as it used to be) is done in such a way that it's not at all unusual to have several spares sat in the messroom on morning shifts while late shifts are covered by rest day work, or vice-versa. Even if the morning spare drivers were willing to move out of their time band to cover one of the open p.m. turns, it would only defer the problem to the next day as they then wouldn't be able to catch their booked (running) turn as they wouldn't get 12 hours rest between shifts (and when it's p.m. spares and a.m. turns, they wouldn't have got 12 hours rest from their previous booked turn).
 
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dk1

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Agreed. Same with guards, too, and all the TOCs I've worked for since privatisation have struggled with station staffing as well.

And at my current depot the roster (created by management, not by the union as it used to be) is done in such a way that it's not at all unusual to have several spares sat in the messroom on morning shifts while late shifts are covered by rest day work, or vice-versa. Even if the morning spare drivers were willing to move out of their time band to cover one of the open p.m. turns, it would only defer the problem to the next day as they then wouldn't be able to catch their booked (running) turn as they wouldn't get 12 hours rest between shifts (and when it's p.m. spares and a.m. turns, they wouldn't have got 12 hours rest from their previous booked turn).
Totally agree. It just shifts the problem forward to the next day or the day after that. Those agreeing to move beyond the agreed spare movement are going to want the off roster payment & many will only do it for 12hrs too. There is simply no easy answer here. Best to keep adhering to the current FDW agreements.
 

Bovverboy

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You know on a Sunday, when the Liverpool to Wilmslow service doesn't interwork with anything else, do Liverpool-based crews go all the way to Wilmslow? The reason I ask, yesterday (Sunday) the 1329 Liverpool to Wilmslow (throughout) and 1539 return (throughout) both missed as a consequence of a staffing problem, implying that the same crew were scheduled to cover both journeys.
 

Llama

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As far as I am aware Piccadilly crew would have relieved the inbound crew from Liverpool at Oxford Rd (edit). The lack of Liverpool crew would've been likely to cause the cancellation in full because the unit would still have been needed at Oxford Rd for the Piccadilly crew, and once it had been to Wilmslow and back the unit would've ended up being dumped at Oxford Rd stopping the job there.

Vice versa if the Piccadilly crew were the ones unavailable - the unit would've been dumped at Oxford Rd on arrival from Lime Street.
 
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Bovverboy

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Okay, but if services had run as scheduled, what would the Liverpool crew done from 1423 (when they would have been relieved at Oxford Road by a Piccadilly crew) to 1630 (when they would have been due to return to Liverpool)? Just hang about Oxford Road?
 

AMD

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Okay, but if services had run as scheduled, what would the Liverpool crew done from 1423 (when they would have been relieved at Oxford Road by a Piccadilly crew) to 1630 (when they would have been due to return to Liverpool)? Just hang about Oxford Road?
Either have a break or their job could involve working back via Cheshire Lines.
 

Amstel

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Northern have solved their problem of having to regularly cancel the Manchester Piccadilly to Hazel Grove trains on Sundays.
They have issued a new timetable starting this weekend; there aren't any anymore.
(you would have to catch a Buxton train).
 

Ant158

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Can’t see any warning of ‘planned cancellations’ this Sunday. Looks like Dalesrail and Colne will see Trains tomorrow!
 

_toommm_

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Can’t see any warning of ‘planned cancellations’ this Sunday. Looks like Dalesrail and Colne will see Trains tomorrow!

Dalesrail hasnt been removed from the timetable yet, so who knows! It ran 3 or 4 times in early January but that's been it for this year IIRC.
 

jamesst

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Can’t see any warning of ‘planned cancellations’ this Sunday. Looks like Dalesrail and Colne will see Trains tomorrow!

The new thing seems to be just removing services from the timetable and pretending they never existed, the Lime Street to Wigan services being one!
 

td97

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It looks like they have far fewer cancellations today, but instead of pre-announcing certain routes will have no service, they've just cancelled certain trains on the day
 

RAPC

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The morning Dalesrail was cancelled again today. Bus replacement to Hellifield instead.
 

Bovverboy

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The new thing seems to be just removing services from the timetable and pretending they never existed, the Lime Street to Wigan services being one!

The Lime Street to Wigan Sunday shorts don't appear to have operated since 11 November, although I believe they had been scheduled to do so for at least part of the period since.

Today, in addition to there being no Wigan shorts, two round trips Blackpool-Liverpool-Blackpool have missed (1524 & 1824 ex-Blackpool, 1712 & 2015 ex-Liverpool), and one round trip Liverpool-Blackpool-Liverpool has been turned short at Preston (1212 ex-Liverpool, 1424 ex-Blackpool). So two consecutive departures from Blackpool have missed.
 

Bovverboy

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I should have mentioned, some journeys missed yesterday on most NW services.
 

323235

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According to the Colne timetable there aren't any trains on Sunday anymore as of last Sunday but a full service did run.

Is this what it's come to now - don't advertise the service but run it if they can?
 

Killingworth

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It looks like they have far fewer cancellations today, but instead of pre-announcing certain routes will have no service, they've just cancelled certain trains on the day

Not so on the Hope Valley route where Sunday cancellations have not previously been an issue. 2 return workings were missing this Sunday, including the last service out of Sheffield.
 

Ant158

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RG2kR6
https://flic.kr/p/2emuvNY
The Preston to Hellifield Service was running today! Went to Whalley Railway Station and captured 158904 heading towards Clitheroe. Also 156496 was unusually operating the 16:31 Manchester service.
RG3352
https://flic.kr/p/RG3352
 

Tim33160

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Train Crew Sunday shortages start again

Victoria - Blackpool north - no trains 21st July
http://m.nationalrail.co.uk/pj/disruption/details/92D2D609A23B4A1FB7D7C3EAE84D0688

"A Sunday working bridging agreement lapsed on Sunday 14 July following the result of the recent New Deal for Drivers (NDfD) referendum that was rejected and which would have aligned terms and conditions and brought Sundays inside the working week.
We have engaged in discussions with ASLEF, the principal driver’s union, on the next steps to review the deal that gives Sunday protection and customer benefits that we require, while meeting Drivers’ aspirations.
Our aim has not changed. We want to introduce the New Deal for Drivers. Understanding feedback from Drivers and lessons learned will take time, however we are working through that to identify a short-term solution to offer Sunday protection while aligned with our long term aim of NDfD.
As such, we do not currently have a flexible agreement in place, in our West and Central regions, that gives us enough options with our drivers.
This may lead, in the short-term, to some Sunday services being cancelled at relatively short notice.
We are working through a plan for each week over the summer to understand the impacts and put mitigations on place to minimise any disruption. This planning will focus on key routes - major cities, Lake District and coastal holiday resorts.!
 

Tim33160

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Seems the lack of certainty of having enough drivers working on a Sunday as knocked out the December 2019 proposals for hourly Sunday services on Mid Cheshire Line. Been a franchise requirement for December 2017.
Two trains an hour on weekdays is still an "aspiration" as well .
 

Jamesrob637

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Seems the lack of certainty of having enough drivers working on a Sunday as knocked out the December 2019 proposals for hourly Sunday services on Mid Cheshire Line. Been a franchise requirement for December 2017.
Two trains an hour on weekdays is still an "aspiration" as well .

I'd post that in the "December 2019 Timetable Changes" thread too as your post is a fine line between this and that thread.
 

td97

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95.5% PPM on yesterday's (revised) Sunday service for the "North Manchester" routes. Most reliable service the lines have seen in months.
 

Llandudno

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95.5% PPM on yesterday's (revised) Sunday service for the "North Manchester" routes. Most reliable service the lines have seen in months.
Are ‘pre-planned’ cancellations excluded from these figures?
 

Failed Unit

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Are ‘pre-planned’ cancellations excluded from these figures?
Yes - unfortunately. It makes the TOC look better.

they could pre-plan to cancel 99% of scheduled services. The have a ppm of 100% on the remaining 1%.

GTR used this trick after May 2018 timetable change. It should be measured against full schedules to stop unscrupulous operators like GTR and northern pre planning lots of cancellations to improve their ppm.
 

td97

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Are ‘pre-planned’ cancellations excluded from these figures?
Yes, the casualties were Blackpool - Victoria and Wigan - Stalybridge. FWIW the Clitheroe and Blackpool services depart Victoria 6 minutes apart.
Not ideal but a reliable amended service is leaps and bounds better than the myriad of cancellations otherwise
 

Killingworth

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4 return trips cancelled on Hope Valley this Sunday, without notice as far as those turning up at the stations were concerned.

It's a lottery going for a Sunday train so why plan to go by rail? Rail enthusiasts and professionals on forums like this can understand the reasons. Rail users haven't the patience to enquire, they just make other plans. The Hope Valley line's winter Sunday service was improved from 2 hourly to hourly only last winter. It is used and a Pacer is often very heavily loaded to the extent that a double unit is sometimes needed.

Strangely, until about the time of the Whaley Bridge dam breach we didn't seem to have suffered. It seems the random, or is it optional, provision of Sunday services by Northern far from improving is becoming more widely entrenched.
 

northernchris

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It seems the random, or is it optional, provision of Sunday services by Northern far from improving is becoming more widely entrenched.

This may be down to crew learning new traction. In the east cancellations have become more common due to lack of crew, especially on Saturday afternoons / evenings. The worst affected routes tend to be Calder Valley and the various Leeds - Sheffield services, and with Leeds, Sheffield and Victoria currently learning 195s (and 331s for Leeds) there's only so much than can be covered through overtime. Piccadilly seems one of the better north west depots, which could suggest it's down to 331 learning meaning more overtime available during the week
 

Killingworth

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This may be down to crew learning new traction. In the east cancellations have become more common due to lack of crew, especially on Saturday afternoons / evenings. The worst affected routes tend to be Calder Valley and the various Leeds - Sheffield services, and with Leeds, Sheffield and Victoria currently learning 195s (and 331s for Leeds) there's only so much than can be covered through overtime. Piccadilly seems one of the better north west depots, which could suggest it's down to 331 learning meaning more overtime available during the week

Which may well be the case, although there were still East Side cancellations due to lack of drivers on Saturday despite many trains being cancelled due to floods. There was very public driver training on 195s at Sheffield Station in the afternoon.
 

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