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Northern: North West Sunday Crew Shortages

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northernchris

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I thought the reason why the planned cancellations weren't released until the Friday was so Northern knew how many drivers they had available. It doesn't make sense there's so many additional cancellations on top unless there's a lot of sickness on the day
 
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Bovverboy

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I expect there to be a few more last minute cancellations later this evening that Northern will surprise on us!

I mentioned on another thread that I got caught by cancellations myself last night. One thing I did notice was that a noticeable proportion were cancelled pretty well on the spur of the moment. For instance I caught an Alderley Edge to Southport train at Piccadilly, intending to travel to Wigan Wallgate. Between Piccadilly and Oxford Road a faint message came over the PA (as is often the case, it wasn't working properly), which, if I'd had to guess, I would have said had announced the train was terminating at Oxford Road. However, I wasn't sure, and thought, I'd soon find out one way or the other. There can't have been any indication at Oxford Road of any termination, since a load of passengers boarded, more in total than had already been on. A couple of minutes later a staff member boarded and announced that the train was being terminated.
There were even instances of trains being 'cancelled' at the last minute when, to anyone who remotely knows how things operate, it would have been obvious that cancelled was what they were going to be. The 1929 Airport - Barrow, for instance, was not acknowledged as being cancelled until after it should have departed Piccadilly, yet the southbound forming journey (ex-Windermere) had been terminated at Preston, no driver.
A similar thing happened with a Chat Moss stopper, it hadn't gone to Wilmslow, so it wasn't likely to be coming back. I cut my losses and went for a 67 bus.
 
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Llanigraham

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I'm wondering why new drivers have not been recruited on a contract with 7 day working?

Because the management and the government do not want to introduce it, and the passengers would probably complain about the increased fares if it did happen.
 

northernchris

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There were even instances of trains being 'cancelled' at the last minute when, to anyone who remotely knows how things operate, it would have been obvious that cancelled was what it was going to be. The 1929 Airport - Barrow, for instance, was not acknowledged as being cancelled until after it should have departed Piccadilly, yet the southbound forming journey (ex-Windermere) had been terminated at Preston, no driver.
A similar thing happened with a Chat Moss stopper, it hadn't gone to Wilmslow, so it wasn't likely to be coming back. I cut my losses and went for a 67 bus.

This is really poor and suggests Northern's control are way overworked. I did see the opposite at Stockport last week though, a Wigan service was showing as cancelled but actually ran, and was never cancelled. Even once the train was in the platform the boards were showing the service as cancelled
 

Killingworth

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This is really poor and suggests Northern's control are way overworked. I did see the opposite at Stockport last week though, a Wigan service was showing as cancelled but actually ran, and was never cancelled. Even once the train was in the platform the boards were showing the service as cancelled

We've had two of those on the Hope Valley in the last 10 days! Not Sundays, but rather confusing. One was announced as cancelled at Dore & Totley, but two Northern online sources confirmed it calling at Grindleford and Sheffield and cancelled at Dore. It did stop at Dore, but some waiting passengers went for the bus.
 

furnessvale

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Because the management and the government do not want to introduce it, and the passengers would probably complain about the increased fares if it did happen.
Why would fares increase? As a police officer I was contracted to work 40 hours a week. ANY 40 hours at management discretion, day or night, any day, with no enhancements.

Given the present pay levels, I am sure there would be no shortage of applicants with that contract.
 

Llanigraham

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Why would fares increase? As a police officer I was contracted to work 40 hours a week. ANY 40 hours at management discretion, day or night, any day, with no enhancements.

Given the present pay levels, I am sure there would be no shortage of applicants with that contract.

For a start the many extra staff that are going to be needed, current pay scales or not.

And again, you seem to be another that has forgotten that the Unions have agreed to a system that would bring Sundays into the roster but it is the TOC's that have rejected it. I wonder why that is?
 

johntea

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We've had two of those on the Hope Valley in the last 10 days! Not Sundays, but rather confusing. One was announced as cancelled at Dore & Totley, but two Northern online sources confirmed it calling at Grindleford and Sheffield and cancelled at Dore. It did stop at Dore, but some waiting passengers went for the bus.

I saw that at Leeds on Friday, I was sat on the 10:15 Leeds to Harrogate right in eye view of the departure board which suddenly decided it was 'Cancelled' but we departed anyway...
 

Tomnick

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Why would fares increase? As a police officer I was contracted to work 40 hours a week. ANY 40 hours at management discretion, day or night, any day, with no enhancements.

Given the present pay levels, I am sure there would be no shortage of applicants with that contract.
It generally costs more to have Sundays inside the working week, as you then need more staff. If you work a Sunday, someone needs to cover the equivalent number of hours in the rest of the week to keep the average working week at the right length.
 

Bovverboy

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I see that the last three westbound Chat Moss stoppers were all cancelled last night - the first from Piccadilly onward, the others throughout. Eastbound, three consecutive journeys missed just the same, but they weren't the last three, they were slightly earlier. This service seems to have had a hard weekend, on Saturday evening three consecutive eastbound journeys were cancelled, and earlier in the day two together had missed both ways.
 

dk1

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Why would fares increase? As a police officer I was contracted to work 40 hours a week. ANY 40 hours at management discretion, day or night, any day, with no enhancements.

Given the present pay levels, I am sure there would be no shortage of applicants with that contract.
I currently have an ex-police officer as my trainee. Goodness me those working conditions seem horrific compared to ours. He cannot believe how good they are. He could be moved from early to nights & now he can refuse a turn if it is 1 minute over his roster. I've told him he no longer has to worry & can plan his life in advance.
 

Jamesrob637

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I see that the last three westbound Chat Moss stoppers were all cancelled last night - the first from Piccadilly onward, the others throughout. Eastbound, three consecutive journeys missed just the same, but they weren't the last three, they were slightly earlier. This service seems to have had a hard weekend, on Saturday evening three consecutive eastbound journeys were cancelled, and earlier in the day two together had missed both ways.

Feel free to correct me but after the two departures within ten minutes of each other just after 14:00, Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme had NOTHING into Piccadilly for the rest of the day! I don't know why they couldn't have stopped another train there to maintain some kind of connection.
 

AE

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... I've told him he no longer has to worry & can plan his life in advance.

I'm a passenger who used to use Northern's services to connect with the WCML on Sundays. Unfortunately for me the earlier strike action and random cancellations of an hourly train more or less forced me to seek an alternative. I now walk the four miles, rather than take the train, as it is the best way to plan my life in advance and ensure that I get to the mainline in time for my connection and not be beholden to the fickle whims of the connecting rail service.

I did this yesterday and arrived at Wigan North Western in time to be bombarded with announcement after announcement of cancelled Northern trains. It's been like this most of the year and it's getting beyond a joke. I don't really care whose fault it is I just want it fixed so that the Sunday service is reliable to use. Then I'll start using the connecting trains again.

The mainline trains all turn up with drivers and on board staff on Sundays and I don't think it's too much to ask that Northern's trains do too.
 

dk1

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The mainline trains all turn up with drivers and on board staff on Sundays and I don't think it's too much to ask that Northern's trains do too.
I feel your pain but it's all down to very differing working agreements. I don't see an end to this anytime soon with that TOC I'm afraid.
 

Bovverboy

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Feel free to correct me but after the two departures within ten minutes of each other just after 14:00, Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme had NOTHING into Piccadilly for the rest of the day! I don't know why they couldn't have stopped another train there to maintain some kind of connection.

RTT indeed backs up what you're saying. Even without cancellations, the northbound Sunday service from the two stations seems barmy, two trains within ten minutes but three-hour gaps as well. There's no logical impediment to having all the ex-Buxton (or all the ex-Crewe - when they're not cancelled!) stopping.
 

Jamesrob637

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RTT indeed backs up what you're saying. Even without cancellations, the northbound Sunday service from the two stations seems barmy, two trains within ten minutes but three-hour gaps as well. There's no logical impediment to having all the ex-Buxton (or all the ex-Crewe - when they're not cancelled!) stopping.

That's worse than on strike days of 2017/2018. Apart from maybe the very first one when nothing ran, Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme managed at the very least a two-hourly service in each direction, and most if not everything ran, even if slightly delayed on occasions.
 

dk1

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When did the current working agreement that seems to be a bone of contention first come into force?
I wouldn't know sorry. It's not the TOC I work for. At a guess I'd say during First North Western days as different to those east of the Pennines.
 
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scrapy

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It was indeed, in 2002.
Yes at the time First had plenty of volunteers for Sunday diagrams as they were overstaffed and overtime was hard to come by. This was unlikely to change in the 3 years remaining of their franchise so was a concession given instead of the huge over inflation pay rises other TOCs were offering at the time. Many local routes in the North West had much poorer Sunday services than they do today (timetabled although actual service probably worse now).
 

evoluzione

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I feel your pain but it's all down to very differing working agreements. I don't see an end to this anytime soon with that TOC I'm afraid.

ASLEF EC have just approved a “Productivity Deal” deal that could help with the Sunday issue on the West , if it gets accepted by drivers.
Its going out to referendum after New Year.
 

johnmoly

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I know a guard who works for Northern based out of Leeds. He turned to work on last Sunday morning for a trip from Leeds to Manchester, it was cancelled due to no driver. He had to wait for four hours for his next turn again from Leeds to Manchester, and again it was cancelled due to no driver available. Not bad a days pay for four hours as soon as his second trip was cancelled he was sent home.
 

dk1

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ASLEF EC have just approved a “Productivity Deal” deal that could help with the Sunday issue on the West , if it gets accepted by drivers.
Its going out to referendum after New Year.
Some hope for the punters but I won't hold my breath just yet. It's more open than this recent election & look at that surprise vote.
 

furnessvale

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I currently have an ex-police officer as my trainee. Goodness me those working conditions seem horrific compared to ours. He cannot believe how good they are. He could be moved from early to nights & now he can refuse a turn if it is 1 minute over his roster. I've told him he no longer has to worry & can plan his life in advance.
I have reread my post and realised just how harsh it appeared.

When I referred to "no shortage of applicants with that contract", I was meaning simply incorporating sunday into the standard week. I certainly was not wishing police conditions on anyone, they belong in the dark ages!
 

dk1

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I have reread my post and realised just how harsh it appeared.

When I referred to "no shortage of applicants with that contract", I was meaning simply incorporating sunday into the standard week. I certainly was not wishing police conditions on anyone, they belong in the dark ages!
Thank you. I didn't personally read it like that. I was just referring to conversations we have had. I was shocked their conditions where so dreadful.
 

Grannyjoans

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Incorporating Sunday's into the working costs a lot of money. The extra staff and the increased salary. There does not seem to be the money available to do it.
Last time they offered a deal which brought Sunday's into the working week they threw in a load of other T&C's in. Such as 6 hours max with no break. It got voted out.
 

mandub

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Incorporating Sunday's into the working costs a lot of money. The extra staff and the increased salary. There does not seem to be the money available to do it.
Last time they offered a deal which brought Sunday's into the working week they threw in a load of other T&C's in. Such as 6 hours max with no break. It got voted out.

And again the wording is ambiguous & open to interpretation.
Does it tie us in to Sundays in the week from 2021 once the 2020 temp deal expires, do we get a 2nd vote on that prospect? It's not clear.
How many Sundays per month would it be from 2021, unspecified as far as I can see.
They just can't resist adding extra stuff into any efforts to getting Sundays covered.
 

philthetube

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I thought the reason why the planned cancellations weren't released until the Friday was so Northern knew how many drivers they had available. It doesn't make sense there's so many additional cancellations on top unless there's a lot of sickness on the day

Many short term cancellations are probably due to staff being unable to get into work.
 
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