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Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Andy Pacer, 11 Jul 2018.

  1. Mogster

    Mogster Member

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    After 20 years of traveling from Wigan to Manchester on Northern’s 14x and 150s for a year or so we had a TPE service from WNW.

    Compared to Northern’s stock the 185s and later 350s were amazing in every respect (overcrowded however...). All of the regulars I spoke to agreed. Returning to Northern’s stock when the service was withdrawn recently just highlighted how bad the stock has been allowed to become over the years.
     
    Last edited: 5 Jan 2019
  2. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    I was saying when all the seats are occupied - that means 3 on the bench seat which is supposed to seat 3 and 2 on the seat which is supposed to seat 2. If you can walk down a Merseytravel 142 with shopping bags easily when all seats are occupied you must have a child size body, as even the smaller slimer guards who are used to walking down the aisles finish up walking sideways or occasionally knocking the shoulders/arms of passengers when all seats are occupied.
     
  3. xotGD

    xotGD Established Member

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    Lots of fascinating pacer wibble, but just to drag things back on topic, does anyone know when we might start to see the wretched things being withdrawn?
     
  4. Chris217

    Chris217 Member

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    Ha,so much negativity for a train!
    Mind you,as a bus driver,I have a similar view on buses in our fleet lol.
    Except it's the opposite way round for me as I prefer the older clapped out buses because I am an enthusiast as well as a driver. It is possible to be both!
    At least we keep a few as back ups for when things go wrong

    As said many times.
    They've done their bit,and did it very well.
    Hope someone can find further use for them as freight units or similar.
    Would be great if parcel or local mail trains were re-introduced. These redundant units could be utilised in that capacity. Maybe added on to existing sets as and when required if needs be.
    It was a disgrace BR losing the mail trains.
    They need to be re-introduced

    Overcrowding is not because of it being a Pacer.
    It's because operators won't put extra sets on when needed.
    More often than not because they have no spares,but they are willing to send 95 142s to the scrap man.
    With newer trains comes new passenger and more overcrowding!
    It wouldn't hurt to keep Pacers as spare sets for extra demand etc.
    At Manchester Piccadilly just before Christmas, I saw a 4 Car 150 rammed so full,no one else could get on!
    Bet those passengers would have appreciated a 142 added onto the back!
    And that was only one train!
    No train is life expired if it still works!
    Find further use for them or at least some of them as back up or spare sets.
    That's the thing with railways today.
    Too much politics dictate and not enough common sense.
    That's what happens when Bankers run the railway instead of railway workers.
     
  5. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    But like with buses if there's no suitable routes for them due to their size then they need to be replaced/sent elsewhere. While trains can be doubled if platforms can't take 6 car Pacers and can take 4 car 150s then they still might not be useful even if they only operate doubled up.
     
  6. Chris217

    Chris217 Member

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    If platforms are not long enough,then the trains never will be long enough!
    Doesn't matter if it's 142,442 or HS2.
    Overcrowding will be the norm!
    A case of 2+2 equals 2 ! No progress!
    No common sense!
    Operators don't care,they are still getting
    the money in revenue,pretty much the same way as buses operate.

    Northern put up fares for peak time
    passengers to eleviate overcrowding.
    All that extra revenue has not seen any extra sets added to already busy services.
    That's how Arriva Northern made their profits and Northern before them!
    Too much Government dictating on railway issues,this is why we have overcrowding,strikes and delays. Too much interference.
    On top of that we have a privatised railway
    hell bent on profits and shareholders first before passengers and public services.
    As seen many times by all of us.
    Overcrowding has got so beyond a problem on some peak journeys, the full
    extent of gratitude for our custom I'm sure would be to add extra sets.
    Who cares if it's a Pacer as long as you ain't packed in like sardines in a tin,which seems to be the acceptable norn!
     
  7. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    A pair of 142s are 62m in length, a pair of 150s are 80m in length. If the platforms are 80m in length and a 4 car 142 is inadequate the first resort has to be to change the trains, not to lengthen the platforms to allow 6 car 142s.

    You say you're a bus driver. If an Optare Solo is too small for a route you drive and it's got a low bridge on the route would you say the solution is to use a decker and to re-route the service, even if an Optare Metrocity would provide adequate capacity and could run to the existing route?
     
  8. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Low powered units with a stepped entry are about as unsuitable for parcels or freight work as it's possible to be. Rail Operations Group are set to trial a pair of converted bi-mode class 319s on prospective parcels work, which, given that the class 325 parcels units are based on the class 319 design, are far more suitable. Other than perhaps a handful entering preservation, the only place the Pacers are likely to be going is the scrapyard.
    BR didn't lose the mail trains. EWS lost the contract in 2004.

    Mail trains are still operated by DB Cargo on the West Coast main line, and on the ECML to a more limited extent, after GB Railfreight reintroduced the class 325 units to service in 2005. They never really went away.
     
  9. Chris217

    Chris217 Member

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    If platforms aint long enough,then lengthen them.
    Then they can lengthen trains also
    to stop overcrowding.
    It doesn't take a genius to work that one out.
    Sparkling new trains ain't always the answer unless they are long enough to carry all passengers and stop at all stations.

    As for Optare Solos.
    We only have 3 which are permanently
    allocated to one bus route.
    And as in the railways,the buses too,have too much politics dictating.
    I am no longer allowed to choose a bus to take out for my shift.my route 20 years ago was all Double deckers,now it's all single deckers,and,apparently double deckers aren't allowed anymore which it total nonsense.
    It boils down to cost and demand.
    Regardless of demand in my opinion.
    But management don't want to hear from us,they just expect results.
    I have had double deckers on my route with no problems.
    For me they are a novelty from the norm!

    Parcel/freight DMU's is a good idea,but
    they'd rather put thousands of wagons on already congested roads.
    We are certainly a long way from progress.
     
  10. Mogster

    Mogster Member

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    I have to disagree with this.

    The 142s have never done anything very well, apart from keep some people employed at British Leyland for a year or so. I remember when they were introduced in the 80s, my father used to commute to Manchester, straight away they were viewed as poor replacements for the old but warm and comfortable MK1 DMUs and rakes of coaches. They were only ever suitable for short, lightly used services, running them on the WCML from Manchester to Preston is almost funny if it wasn’t so sad...

    I actually believe the 142s have been very damaging for the image of rail travel in the North. Regions that rejected them outright 30 years ago were correct to do so.
     
  11. ed1971

    ed1971 Member

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    I am 6'1 tall, but I have no problem with fitting my knees in on 142s except with the ex Merseyrail 142s with the small seats. I have the same problem as you with some of the modern buses where there is no knee room. The Alexander Dennis Enviro 400s are one of them, although they seem to have rectified this on the new version of the model.
     
  12. ed1971

    ed1971 Member

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    I remember the slow and smokey old DMUs with their bad bogie hunting. The Class 104s with their dark wood stained interiors were terrible - I speak from experience. The Pacers were an advance on them, albeit not a big one. Having said that, the old DMUs had far better ambiance than 150s and the CLass 123s with B4 and B5 bogies gave a better ride, but unfortunately I never got the chance to ride on one.

    The Pacers could not have been so damaging to the railways, as at one time a two carriage one was adequate for much of the time. Now a 2 carriage Pacer is seldom adequate for the rise in passenger numbers.

    Many other countries have had or have railbuses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railbus), but there doesn't seem to be complaints about them like here. For example Germans loved their Schienenbus. The tendancy is now to replace them with lightweight modern bogied DMUs.
     
    Last edited: 9 Jan 2019
  13. Chris217

    Chris217 Member

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    I wonder how many people would rate
    the Pacers if they were all fitted with Leyland 0.680 Atlanteans engines lol.
     
  14. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    Have any Northern Pacers been withdrawn yet ?
     
  15. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    None at all.
     
  16. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    Thanks. Please somebody wake me up when there's a posting of a withdrawal
     
  17. John Taylor

    John Taylor Member

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    142090 looks like it might go first as paint has come off the exterior and is missing a seat from the wheelchair area. Can't see Northern wanting to keep this one.
     
  18. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    I believe the original plan was for the class 144s to start going off lease first (All thirteen 2-car units were supposed to be withdrawn by now), but with the ongoing delays I suppose anything could happen.
     
  19. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    I bet that they will still go in that order. I am going to go out of on a limb and say the first units will go in May. Northern are only waiting for 2 units from ScotRail. The TPE May provisional timetable shows EMUs running via Bolton so the Northern one should do when its uploaded. If the 769s enter service that will be enough to end regular short forming and send all 13 of the 2 coach 144s to South Wales. If TfW decides it doesn't want them then 142s should go first. The 195 delay probably won't change things much, unless Northern are prepared to downgrade services to free up 158s and 170s for the new services that 195s were meant to run. 331 delay means no capacity boost and 3+2 seating EMUs running services that should be run by Northern Connect quality trains. As I keep saying derogations for pacers next year would be very toxic politically. They will be at the bottom of the list.
     
  20. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    If you spread a rumour or speculation often enough and tell it often enough then it becomes believed as fact. Only in Northern Land people believe that 144s could be going to TFW whereas, unless there is a hidden and as yet undisclosed agenda, there is no mention in TFW land of such a transfer.
     
  21. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    There was a reference to ongoing attempts to temporarily lease some "very old trains" at a Welsh Assembly committee last month. With the time frame (early this year) it is extremely likely they are trying to obtain pacers. 144s would be of the same standard as TfW pacers.
     
  22. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    It's 769s and 230s that TFW are waiting for. You can never rule out any change of plan though
     
  23. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    It was about additional rolling stock to provide cover during compliance work, not units that are part of their current rolling stock plan. Pacers would fit the bill, I am struggling to think of anything remotely suitable going off lease until towards the end of the year, which would be too late.
     
  24. Chris217

    Chris217 Member

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    I reckon 150s cascaded from GWR
    could be the next influx for TFW.
    769s and 230s are a long time coming!
    150s will get replaced by 165s,166s for Bristol and Exeter areas.
    Those 150s could then could go on the Valley Lines as pacer replacements.
    That would be the logical choice.
    But who on the railway is ever logical in making decisions.
     
  25. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    There are no more class 150s being released from the GWR franchise (Unless there's something happening with the two 150/0s that I don't know about). The 150/1s have already gone, to Northern, as a result of the 166s being introduced in the Bristol area.
     
  26. Chris217

    Chris217 Member

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    Ain't the 165s migrating west also though.
    Don't see many in Paddington these days.

    GWR have around 20 odd 150/2s.
    These could easily be cascaded with the arrival of 165s and castle HST's.
    I believe TFW may be getting some 170s also? I suppose these could replace existing 150/2s that are currently not used by Valley Line services,hence could be perminent Pacer replacements for those lines.

    So many changes are planned especially for TFW,seems like a challenge if they want all Pacers eliminated by 2020.

    As for Northern,I don't think all Pacers will be retired by the deadline.
     
  27. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    The 2-car class 165s are currently moving west to allow the welcome introduction of 5-car services on Cardiff - Portsmouth (And possibly also for use on Devon Metro services?), and allow class 158s to move to the South West to operate stopping services on the Cornish main line, alongside the short HST sets. Given the slow rate of progress by Wabtec it'll be some time yet before the power door fitted HST sets are available in any great number.

    The 150/2s are staying for use on the Devon and Cornish branchlines. Retaining them has always been part of the franchise plan and that hasn't changed as far as I am aware.

    TfW are gaining the 4 x 2-car and 8 x 3-car class 170s from Greater Anglia, the former for use specifically on the Heart of Wales line, the remainder I believe for general West Wales services. They are indeed part of TfWs' Pacer replacement strategy.
     
    Last edited: 8 Jan 2019
  28. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    166s as well as 165s many of which have already transferred. TFWs 170s will be for use in West Wales, Heart of Wales, Maesteg, Cheltenham and Ebbw Vale. I thought this thread was about Pacers
     
  29. darloscott

    darloscott Member

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    My understanding was the 144s going to Wales wouldn't be long term, just allow them to withdraw loads of 150s for PRM work to ensure they all get done by December? They couldn't just take the majority of them out of service without getting something else to keep the services going. These 144s would be ideal for that, fairly similar to 143s too keeping training costs to a minimum?
     
  30. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    How could they be long term when Pacers will be illegal on 1/1/2020? But if 144s do reach south Wales soon they'll be retiring there rather than in Northern land.

    But personally I think TfW should keep 143s and 144s going until all their 150/2s are modified, even if that means keeping Pacers in the Valleys in to 2020. A pacer is better than no train or chronic short forms. It seems impossible to get 35 x 150/2s and 18 x 158s done by December.
     

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