Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Andy Pacer, 11 Jul 2018.

  1. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    It only seems to be people in the North who have the idea that 144s would go to TFW
     
  2. Paul_10

    Paul_10 Member

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    Think it would make more sence to go for 142s really as then you got gurantee 100% traction knowledge as no doubts Northerns 142s are exactly the same as TFWs?

    Of course GWR 143s would also be exactly the same so the potential is there to ease overcrowding and start rapidly going through PRM mods.

    Will be interesting what out of 3 types of pacers interiors northern will target first for withdrawal? The ex merseyrail ones look very shabby too me whilst the ex northern spirit ones look in decent nick yet has less seats and the lack of cycle space a real nuisence. The bus seat pacers are more varied in terms of the interiors so whilst i suspect it will be quite random i would love too see the back of the ex merseyrail ones first and the ex northern spirit ones last but will seat capacity mean the opposite?
     
  3. Kyle1

    Kyle1 Member

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    Aren't GA's 156's available in a couple of months?
     
  4. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    Will they be available in the numbers required?
     
  5. LOL The Irony

    LOL The Irony Established Member

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    1x pacer is about 31 meters and 1x156 is 46 metres so 1x 156 = 1.5 pacers. There are 9 GA 156's so that = 13.5 pacers. Also shouldn't we move to another thread for this?
     
  6. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    i expect they'll base their decisions on the condition under the solebar, and the dates on the lease paperwork, rather than the style of interior.
     
  7. Paul_10

    Paul_10 Member

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    I suspect so although i cant imagine many will be in any decent condition and all the leases run out at the same time apparently(31st December 2019)

    Going to be an interesting year and see whatever the plan is works out.
     
  8. td97

    td97 Member

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  9. superkev

    superkev Established Member

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    Surely the leaf fall seasons finished now so Northern should be getting availability back up. Don't they look after there trains or perhaps the clerks in charge expect to maintain an ageing fleet with the same resources as say a southern fleet with mainly new trains.
    K
     
  10. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    It astonishes me that Northern have received 49 additional units from GWR and Scotrail over the past year or so, and while not all of them have entered service yet, they don't seem to have represented so much as a drop in the ocean in terms of improving Northern's shortforms and general lack of capacity. As these cascaded units were presumably meant to aid in Pacer replacement but have had no such effect, I can't wrap my head around how Manchester - Blackpool electrification and 58 class 195 units are supposed to result in the replacement of 102 Pacer units.
     
  11. Mogster

    Mogster Member

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    Northern Fail showing 95 short formed services yesterday and 144 so far today. 144 does sound high.
     
  12. Mordac

    Mordac Established Member

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    How many diagrams would that be, though? That'd be the more useuful number by far.
     
  13. Mogster

    Mogster Member

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    Yeah, presumably the same short formed train will go back and forth all day.
     
  14. mallard

    mallard Established Member

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    That's all well and good, but 9 units can't cover 13 diagrams...
     
  15. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

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    Which Class 142s are the ex Merseyrail ones?
     
  16. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Numerically, units 142041 - 049 and 142051 - 058.

    The ones with individual, low backed 3+2 seating, external dot matrix destination displays and internal passenger information screens.
     
  17. Jozhua

    Jozhua Member

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    Maybe to get around accessibility 2020 the pacers will be used in conjunction with class 153/156 trains to form 3/4 carriage services?

    Been as its taking so long to get new fleets introduced and actually electrify Bolton we might be seeing them around for much longer :s
     
  18. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

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    Thanks very much. I only require 056 for sight and haulage from the above list.
     
  19. ed1971

    ed1971 Member

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    Chris, all Pacers had Leyland TL11 engines when built which was an updated and turbocharged O.680, which proved not to be as durable in rail use. The last Atlanteans built with chassis code AN68D/1R (31ft long) or AN68D/2R (33ft long) had what was known as the 4041 series engine and was a 0.680/TL11 cross. I think that this engine was also known as the L11 and was fitted to a lot of Class 101 DMUs in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

    It would have been interesting to see how well a DAF 1160 would have coped in rail use! (It was based on the Leyland O.680).
     
    Last edited: 9 Jan 2019
  20. anamyd

    anamyd Member

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    16x 158s, as 818/819/822/823/826/829/831/840 are all now PRM. But yes your point very much still stands!
     
  21. AMD

    AMD Member

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    There is a small matter of an increase in the number of services run, which started last May - there is something in the region of 30 more unit diagrams to be covered each day. Also with the electrification not being complete, the diesels that should have been freed up from the Bolton corridor to cover some of these new diagrams haven't.
     
  22. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    I doubt the number of units is more than saved by electrification and 769s. Introducing EMUs and 769s frees up 2 pacers each because of their size.

    Pacers are usually doubled up and your forgetting 8 x 4 coach 769s. I think the fleet utilisation rate must be extremely low because the numbers don't stack up. Northern have received significantly more units than required to run the extra services they are running.

    As I keep saying, derogations will be granted to 153s to run only attached to compliant units long before pacers get one, it would be much more tolerable politically.
     
  23. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Pacers run doubled up in the North West which will make a difference to the number replaced, but in my experience this is much less common on the Yorkshire side of the Pennines. True, I had omitted the 769s, as it's not clear to me how much of an impact they will have on existing Northern diesel diagrams, or even when or where they might enter service.

    Arriva must, presumably, have an accurate picture that the number of cascaded and new units, bolstered by electrification, will be sufficient to replace the Pacers, but it seems to me that the numbers proposed will simply perpetuate the 'bare bones' approach to capacity and train length that has been endemic across the North of England for years.
     
    Last edited: 10 Jan 2019
  24. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    Don't forget that after December, (hopefully!) there won't be any units being taken out of service for PRM mods....
     
  25. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    That in itself seems optimistic but, even if not, looking at 507021's excellent list on their blog there'll probably still be units being sent away for separate refurbishment work.
     
  26. LOL The Irony

    LOL The Irony Established Member

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    a 4 car 20 meter unit is about 20 meters longer than a double 2 car pacer.
     
  27. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    The first two 769s are being tested. The 769s will run Wigan-Alderley Edge and Wigan-Stalybridge both of which are run by double sprinters or pacers. The issue you have pointed probably makes a short term conditional derogation for 153s likely. A 2 coach sprinter is a significant capacity increase on a two coach pacer but has fewer seats than 3 car or double 2 car pacers. As a short term measure a 150 + 153 would be OK. I am not expecting anything more than the bare minimum capacity but the pacers can go and some in May because of electrification and 769s. Northerns current shortforming is due to low availability not a shortage of units. They have received ~45 cascaded units, add in electrification and 769s and I reckon that amounts to more seats than all the Northern pacers, before considering the genuinely new trains.
     
  28. AngelicUpstart

    AngelicUpstart Member

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    Northern Journeycheck page shows trains with more coaches as updates. It also shows trains that had planned to be changed but are actually running as originally planned. So the count can be significantly out.
     
  29. Mogster

    Mogster Member

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    There’s also stealth short forming that doesn’t appear on Journey Check or Northern Fail...

    Like the 15:49 from Alderley Edge to Southport currently <(
     
  30. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Thanks for the clarification, I thought that Wigan and Alderley Edge were somehow involved. I hadn't realised that there are diesel units running through to Alderley Edge at present.

    I agree that it seems more likely that the class 153s would receive a derogation than the Pacers would be retained.
     

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