Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Andy Pacer, 11 Jul 2018.

  1. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

    Messages:
    19,867
    Joined:
    6 Aug 2009
    Location:
    Yorks
    Indeed. Another day, another short form on my line. It seems the more rolling stock they get, the less they seem to have available.
     
  2. superkev

    superkev Established Member

    Messages:
    1,277
    Joined:
    1 Mar 2015
    Location:
    west yorkshire
    Yes I too wonder how despite the influx of 50 or so secondhand trains and the ending of the leaf fall season Northern still seem short of working units.
    Personal view is they mustn't resource maintenance and spares holding sufficiently to reflect the age of the fleet.
    Another factor may be Northerns depots which compare poorly with the new state of the art new ones springing up elsewhere. Shouldnt be trains equal new depots!!
    K
     
  3. northernchris

    northernchris Member

    Messages:
    734
    Joined:
    24 Jul 2011
    I don't think all of the cascaded 156s/158s are in use yet. Don't forget additional 156s are required on Cumbrian Coast, there's a 156 out of service after the level crossing incident on Monday, there's a 142 and potentially 144 out long term plus since May there has been an increase in total number of units required, and an increase in miles per day units cover. There's only so much you can hammer a 30 year old unit, and I suspect that's where the problem is
     
  4. Mogster

    Mogster Member

    Messages:
    207
    Joined:
    25 Sep 2018
    Northern Fail is quoting 177 short formed services today... o_O
     
  5. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,198
    Joined:
    25 Aug 2014
    How reliable is the app?
     
  6. Mogster

    Mogster Member

    Messages:
    207
    Joined:
    25 Sep 2018
    I’ve no idea. It seems to pull its data from Northern Journey Check. Sometimes NJC doesn’t have data for a few hours and Northern Fail shows the same.

    I’ve had situations were my services were short formed and they didn’t appear on NJC or NF. On the other hand people posting have suggested that services are occasionally listed as short formed early then restored part way through the day. Personally I haven’t experienced that.

    It is interesting though.
     
  7. LOL The Irony

    LOL The Irony Established Member

    Messages:
    2,172
    Joined:
    29 Jul 2017
    Location:
    Tracy Island
    If a diagram works 2 trains an hour for 18 hours and it's short formed, that's 36 trains. 2 diagrams like that is 72 short forms. It shows how quickly the number increases.
     
  8. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

    Messages:
    1,439
    Joined:
    17 Aug 2018
    So, according to RAIL magazine and TfW Rail Services (the latter in a since deleted tweet), the 144s transferring temporarily isn't (aren't) just a rumour anymore. So when will South Wales get your lovely trains, people of Northernland...? :lol:
     
  9. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,198
    Joined:
    25 Aug 2014
    My bet is in May if the 769s enter service. Combined with EMUs through Bolton it will mean Northern will have nearly all the slower trains they are due to receive. There will be some attempt to shuffle around units to introduce the delayed new services like extending Leeds-Victoria to Chester but there is limited suitable stock.
     
  10. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,863
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    Not exactly a withdrawal, quite the opposite if you commute in the North West in fact, but Newton Heath is gaining additional ex-Heaton class 142s as a result of class 158s being introduced into service in the north east:
     
  11. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

    Messages:
    1,439
    Joined:
    17 Aug 2018
    Thank you :)
     
  12. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

    Messages:
    1,439
    Joined:
    17 Aug 2018
    "rumbling beasts" :D
     
  13. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,198
    Joined:
    25 Aug 2014
    The 769s entering service are a big if and they would free up 16 DMUs. Full EMU services through Bolton from May is looking extremely likely. I think the most that could go south before the 195s enter service would be the 13 x 2 car 144s. That would require a significant reshuffle to transfer sufficient units across the pennines to replace them.

    That would indicate that east of the pennines there are already more pacers than needed. Electrification will replace 20+ west of the pennines. May does seem a reasonable bet providing that the full EMU timetable is introduced and some 769s enter service.
     
    Last edited: 17 Jan 2019
  14. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,863
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    That'll certainly be the case in the north east once the 158s enter service, but I'm less certain of what the situation in Yorkshire will be. The article does include the quote
    Which possibly suggests that there's still a need for additional Pacers in Yorkshire, though you would think that the 170s from Scotrail would have helped out any stock shortage on the east side of the pennines.
     
  15. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,529
    Joined:
    10 Dec 2013
    Location:
    Glasgow
    Are the Class 144s directly owned by West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive for use specifically in that area?

    If so, would they be happy to let them go possibly to Wales or even the Lancashire side of the Pennines?
     
  16. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,863
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    No, they're not. The centre cars of the 3-car units were for a time, but they were sold to Porterbrook some years ago.
     
  17. northernchris

    northernchris Member

    Messages:
    734
    Joined:
    24 Jul 2011
    Unfortunately this is not the case, with a significant amount of short forming occurring most days. Since the December timetable change there's been an increase in unit requirements so the 170s haven't made much of an impact in terms of reshuffling stock
     
  18. Mogster

    Mogster Member

    Messages:
    207
    Joined:
    25 Sep 2018
    There’s plenty of shortforming West of Manchester also. From personal experience the Southport line has been hit quite badly in the last couple of weeks.

    The 142s are still in heavy use over here. We were treated to a lovely ex Merseyrail example today :lol:
     
  19. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,198
    Joined:
    25 Aug 2014
    Replacing DMUs through Bolton with EMUs and the entry into service of 769s should free up 76 coaches i.e. 38 x 2 car pacers and provide extra capacity through longer coaches. There is limit to how many units Northerns PRM mod black hole can swallow! How many units are currently out of service to undergo work?
     
  20. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,863
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    They're still in heavy use everywhere, although it's surprised me that inroads are beginning to be made into the north east fleet first: A benefit of not being directly reliant on the introduction of new trains, I suppose!
    That many? I appreciate that services on the Manchester - Preston corridor typically operate with pairs of units, but I wouldn't have thought that Manchester - Blackpool services required that many diagrams.
     
  21. Mogster

    Mogster Member

    Messages:
    207
    Joined:
    25 Sep 2018
    The PRM bogs do take up huge amounts of space in the small 150 carriages. Standing and seated capacity must be reduced quite a bit.
     
  22. darloscott

    darloscott Member

    Messages:
    378
    Joined:
    12 Dec 2013
    Location:
    Stockton
    Wouldn't be surprised if they transferred a load of 150s onto 144 diagrams around Yorkshire once they're freed up from Manchester area. Wonder if 769s won't be ready hence why they're backfilling with 142s replaced in NE for now?
     
  23. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,198
    Joined:
    25 Aug 2014
    Its not a precise figure but its roughly 8+8+4 (Blackpool-Piccadilly, Preston-Airport and Buckshaw-Victoria). Obviously these are often shortformed but they cannot be once they are run by single EMUs.

    Northern said this week that the 769s would be entering service in spring. There seems to be a good chance that will happen. I think the move of 142s is just because the 158s are ready to re-enter service and Northern are trying to stop short forming.
     
  24. VioletEclipse

    VioletEclipse Member

    Messages:
    389
    Joined:
    10 Nov 2018
    Location:
    European Union
    What are the chances of Pacers still being used for most Northern services in and out of York in mid to late February? Just that I might go there then.
     
  25. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,198
    Joined:
    25 Aug 2014
    The "North East" that is recieving the refurbished 158s is to the north of Yorkshire! Use of pacers elsewhere will only grow until the new stock enters service and EMUs take over Bolton services.
     
  26. VioletEclipse

    VioletEclipse Member

    Messages:
    389
    Joined:
    10 Nov 2018
    Location:
    European Union
    ok, Thanks :)
     
  27. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,863
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    Northern class 150s are a complete hotch-potch, but the seated capacity in the toilet fitted vehicle of units with their original Ashbourne seating reduces by 10 seats, and by 4 seats in the ex-FNW vehicles fitted with 3+2 Chapman seating, as the latter were already fitted with disabled accessible toilets when they were refurbished circa 2000, just not ones that are compliant with the current standards. The refurbishment is actually supposed to increase standing capacity.

    Taking the 150/2s, fixed seating is reduced to a total of 130 (+3 tip-up) in the Ashbourne seated units, and to 128 (+9 tip-up) in the Chapman seated examples. For comparison Northern's class 142s seat between 106 and 121, depending on layout.
    I'm led to believe that was the original plan, and part of the reasoning behind creating a sub-fleet of 3-car hybrid class 150s was to serve as direct replacements for the 3-car 144s.
    Thanks for elaborating, that helps make things clearer.
     
  28. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

    Messages:
    1,306
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2017
    In the sense that it provides more empty floor space to stand in, it does. Whether that's a good thing or not is another topic altogether.
     
  29. xotGD

    xotGD Established Member

    Messages:
    1,802
    Joined:
    4 Feb 2017
    A lot of the extra floor space is inside the bog!
     
  30. Mogster

    Mogster Member

    Messages:
    207
    Joined:
    25 Sep 2018
    Extra floorspace is useless without something to hold on to. Standing provision is as poor on the refurbished 150s as it always was.
     

Share This Page